OK, they’re separated… now what?
You bring a new pet home and you're keeping them separated from your resident pet like everyone says to do... but what are the next steps?!
In this Dog and Cat Chat, I give Agnes a plan of action for Daisy, her young, prey-drivey dog and Chrys, her newly adopted chill-dude orange cat.
What you'll hear in this episode:
why scheduling time for your cat to have the full run of the house (often) is important
why an "airlock" of barriers is essential
why the goal is NOT to get the animals closer to each other
what to do if the plan "doesn't work"
To listen to the full episode, click here to open it in your podcast player or press play below:
Meet Daisy and Chrysanthemum
Resident animal: Daisy, a 2-year-old Pit mix with high prey drive and leash reactivity, doesn’t do well with meeting other animals while on leash
Newcomer: Chrysanthemum (Chrys), a 4-year-old orange tabby who is “one of the most relaxed cats on the planet”
The Initial Plan
create a double-layered barrier system that creates an area of neutral territory, so they are unable to get so close to each other (to help Daisy remain under-threshold and keep Chrys feeling safer)
create ample opportunity for Chrys to explore the whole apartment while Daisy is secured away (to prevent him from consistently trying to dart out of Agnes’s room)
attempt the following setup:
Chrys is engaged in enrichment activities far away from the gate at the entrance of his safe room (so he is not focused on Daisy)
Daisy is engaged in active training or playing with Agnes (practice this first with the cat’s door closed/no visual access)
the neutral area creates a nice space buffer between them (and increases the chances that they will be able to see each other but remain calm)
contingency plan (if Daisy can’t stop fixating on Chrys even with the distance and previous rehearsal with no visual access):
use a tossed tennis ball to remove her from the setup area
later, practice eating treat scatters off the ground (then see if she can eat a treat scatter when Chrys is in sight)
Updates from Agnes
✅ What worked:
letting Chrys explore the rest of the apartment did help in him not escaping as much
🤔 What needs more tweaking:
Daisy keeps fixating on him and getting her attention away from him has been hard
I would do the exercises beforehand but when we bring him in she doesn’t give a crap about any treat/distraction
we’ve had 2 accidental meets where one or the other slipped through the gate/door - Daisy gets in his face and Chrys gets scared and swats and grumbles
❗️ Important variable:
moved house last week - taking a break on any training/work in order to not stress them more
My Questions/Follow Up Requests
footage of the training exercises Agnes is doing with Daisy on her own
footage of Daisy’s behavior when Agnes attempts to do the same exercises with Chrys in sight
the physical barrier setup (to help prevent future accidental meets)
Any future updates from Agnes will be put here - stay tuned!
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Naomi: Preview clip: She'll be more likely to be like, “Oh we've played this right in this exact same situation. We've played this game. Oh, there happens to be a cat over there”.
Hello, you cat and dog people! This is It's Training Cats and Dogs - the show for people with both cats and dogs who want peace in their home and peace between their animals.
I'm Naomi Rotenberg, your source of practical strategies for keeping everyone in your multi-species household safe and sane. And today's episode is a Dog and Cat Chat with Agnes. She recently adopted a super chill kitty who's already showing that he wants to explore his new turf, but the few times he and the dog have seen each other through a gate, things haven't gone extremely well. She was looking for some guidance on what the heck to try next. Let's get into it.
Hi Agnes. So happy to have you on this dog and cat chat. Welcome.
Agnes: Thank you. And I'm excited to be here and talk to you.
Naomi: Tell me about your pets, how, what you're currently dealing with, and maybe we'll try to figure out how I could help.
Agnes: Yeah, so I actually have one about to be two-year-old pit mix who is currently sitting on my lap here and her name is Miss Daisy and she has a high prey drive. But it's more so leash reactivity where it's outside. She's not a fan. She's better about big dogs, but small dogs, pigeons, squirrels - nah we're pulling and fixating, but like she can get along with dogs inside of enclosed spaces. So, I've tried to do a typical intro with her, like with a dog on a leash and everything. That went horrendous. But once we were in the house, she like just a few corrections, staying on leash and then letting them go. And they were fine. Like they played well. She's just a little rough placed out, but few corrections and she's okay. And then I decided to get a cat a week ago from...cause I work at an animal shelter, so fell in love with these two babies. And my second baby is my cat who is in my room and separated from her at the moment. He's a four-year-old orange tabby who is one most relaxed cats on the planet.
As I've been telling people, I'm like, I have a dog cat and a cat dog. So, he lived with other cats before, from my knowledge and from the history that I have. But not dogs. And I have no idea whether my dogs lived with other cats before. Currently I have them separated and that was the plan for the time being.
I've been trying to make sure I split my time half and half, make sure my dog's still getting enrichment. Otherwise for him, I've realized he has this wand toy so starting with that. And I tried - so far the only thing I tried... sothe last two mornings when I've had time is I have baby gates on both sides of my door because the cat keeps trying to escape and it's the only thing that will stop my dog. She's scared of two feet of a metal gate. But then we'll clear 10 feet of a fence - of a wooden fence, but that interactions have not gone well. They'll get close, both of them. And my dog's just like curious, like she's just What is this? Why is it in here? Why is it making noises? Because my cat likes to chirp and stuff. And he acts all fine up until the last second where he gets close to the gate and then we'll swat at towards her direction. And hiss if she stays, if she starts to whine, she'll start to grumble. And so, I'm like, okay gonna stop here.
Naomi: Yeah.
Agnes: And so, I guess trying to get...I don't, I like obviously the ideal world would be like they're besties and like they cuddle and things like that. But I just honestly would like for them to coexist and be in the same space and even ignoring each other would be perfect. Yeah. And I'd be beyond happy.
Yeah. So that's about my two fur babies.
Naomi: So, the question is really so we have them separated - now what?
Agnes: Yeah.
Naomi: Okay.
Agnes: Pretty much.
Naomi: Got it. So, this is a great question and I think that like the interactions through the baby gate that you've described, I know the people who are listening and are like, Yeah, I could see it. I could picture it perfectly cuz a lot of people go through this as well. So, I have a few questions. Number one, you mentioned that the cat... what's the cat's name by the way?
Agnes: So, I was stuck with the flower name, Chrysanthemum for long, and Chris for short.
Naomi: Chrysanthemum for...and Chris. And he's a male. Okay, cool. Yeah. Love it. Okay, so Chris is wanting to escape the room. What does that look like and when does that happen? And does he ever get out of the room?
Agnes: He's gone out once. Like he made it like a foot.
Naomi: Yeah.
Agnes: He always tries to get out when I'm coming in or I'm leaving cause he's just doing really well. Like he's just like comfortable since day one. So, he just wants, every time I'm coming in and out he's I'm coming with.
Naomi: Yeah. Got it. Okay. So, this is going to be helpful for two things. Number one is I would like him to be able to explore the whole house safely by swapping with Daisy, and we can discuss how to do that with your routine.
But importantly, I want to set up kind of an airlock of gates so that it's not just that one layer. Like I know you have two gates like at the door, but I'd like to have a DMZ what I call like, where there, it's a neutral space where like she's behind a gate over to the left and he's behind another gate in your room, so that if he does escape, she's not potentially right there. And she's not able to get super-duper close to his gate.
Agnes: Okay.
Naomi: And so, what we're doing is we're preventing that event. Like when you were mentioning when you had them interacting through the gate, it was okay until they got too close and then like he wants to smack her and she's whining cuz she's frustrated and then he goes what the hell.
So, we can prevent all of that. By having that kind of neutral zone in the middle so that they can experience seeing each other more often without getting too close.
Agnes: Okay.
Naomi: So that would be my first recommendation. Cause we don't want him to get super-duper frustrated being stuck in there. I don't want you to be scared that he's gonna bust out and then you know, a chase ensues. So, having those two layers is gonna give you those two positive consequences, right? You have that extra space and a little bit of peace of mind. I'd also recommend, depending on how he's trying to get out, if he is trying to jump gates then we can also talk about ways to combine gates things like that, to keep him safer.
Agnes: So far not yet.
[00:06:27] Naomi: Good. So, we'll just, we'll watch him. I'm sure he's gonna try lots of different things, but I would try to figure out if there is a way to swap them so that he does have an opportunity to explore the rest of the house. Are you in a house or an apartment?
Agnes: So, I'm in an apartment and what I'm thinking is my dog can go in my roommate's room. And he can explore when my roommate's not here cause she is allergic. So that's why he is also been in my room and cause I'm moving in two months.
[00:06:52] Naomi: Uhhuh.
Agnes: So out...so that she won't have to be with him at all. But when she's not home, cuz we have different off days, I can put my dog in her room and then he can explore the apartment.
Naomi: Perfect. Love it sounds like it's a win-win for everybody. Theoretically, once he knows what's out there and that he will have a chance to explore more of the space, he will be less likely to want to bust out at every opportunity as long as you are continuing to enrich his life in your room as well.
And the goal is to be able to move this along a little quicker so that he can be out more. Cuz if he really wants to explore and he's fairly neutral, then theoretically we can go a little bit faster than if he was a scaredy cat who was booking it whenever he saw her, and then she would immediately wanna chase him.
So that's the change in management that I would suggest. And that would lead into setups where they'd be able to see each other through the gates. But I wouldn't say that the goal is to get them as close to the gate as possible. I would say that the goal is actually to have them move around the space and away from the gates when they can. So, we don't wanna be like, here kitty, here's some cookies here. Here dog, here's some cookies like right at the gate. Because in real life, when there's no gate, we don't want them to be that close. So, we don't want them to practice that. And then if they are that close and they're stuck, they're like, oh what am I supposed to do?
So, then he's gonna smack and she's gonna whine. So what that might look like instead is to have them eating their dinner on one side where he's back from the gate instead of being right at his gate, and then you are playing with her or training with her, or there's a bunch of different opportunities, you know, with food or anything that she likes where she can remain calm and move around her space, watch him, and then disengage, and then go do something fun.
So, we're trying to teach her that there are other things that you can do when the cat is around besides stare at him and try to get to him, right? And theoretically if he is also occupied and not staring at her through the gate, then that will be easier for her.
Agnes: Okay.
Naomi: That would be the first setup that I would try. Does that sound like something you can do?
Agnes: Yeah. That definitely sounds feasible space wise, and that definitely sounds feasible activity in what I am capable of doing.
Naomi: Wonderful.
Agnes: Yeah.
Naomi: And if you're, you know, doing this on your own, that's one of the reasons I've designed the types of setups that I have is you know, you're one person, you can't be working with both animals at the same time, unless they're really close to each other or they're really good at stationing. And if they were really good at stationing, they wouldn't be having these issues. Or at least these types of... you know, like you could use that as management. So having him occupied with something kind of hands off. You can have little enrichment stations for him. It doesn't have to be meals, just something where he's not doing the weird cat sitting and staring thing that cats do when they're trying to assess a threat. If he was just like, "Doopy do, I'm away from the gate", then she can watch him just being a cat and get information about him in that way.
Agnes: Okay.
Naomi: So that's what I would start with. That's not by any stress of the imagination, the whole thing but I think that will help you get further along than banging your proverbial head against the baby gates where you know you're waiting for it to go south. You wanna have the feeling in your body...like our guts are pretty good about telling okay it's goona, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Like it's going okay now, but we want it to, we don't wanna have that feeling. We want it to be easier for them. Like I'd rather it be too easy than for you to be waiting for them to stress out at each other, especially at the beginning. Later on, once they're good at these games, like you can start pushing it a little bit, but like right now, I just want them to be able to see each other and not be fixated if possible.
Agnes: Yeah, that sounds... a great goal. They could literally just be able to get to and then this sounds like an awesome next step of, okay, where do we go from just being separated?
Naomi: Yeah.
Agnes: And definitely okay. Just trying to get this is helpful that I don't have to get them close to each other. They just have to be far apart and not fixating. Sounds great.
Naomi: Yeah.
Agnes: This, I'm like, this is something I can now work towards.
Naomi: Excellent.
Agnes: I know what I'm looking for.
Naomi: Good. And that is a... wanting to get them closer is something that like almost everyone does, and I think that it's a very understandable concept, right? You're like, Okay, I want them to be able to be okay when they're close to each other, but then we forget about what the ultimate goal is. Where like we don't want that to force them to be close to each other just because we have a gate there, right? Like when we take the gate away, like we're not gonna be like, “Hey! Look, let's get close to each other”, right?
So, the best thing that I like to do is to teach the animals to move away from each other. And then what you will start to see is when they both realize that they can move away from each other and move around more naturally, they will start to be more comfortable. Slightly closer to each other on their own because they'll be choosing that.
Right? They're like, I know I can leave, but I don't really want to because they're being fine. So, I'm gonna stay here until something bad happens, right? But ideally, nothing bad happens, so then they continue to trust each other. So that's the goal. Theoretically. But we need to start implementing and reinforcing those types of abilities around each other.
I'm glad that it sounds like a good plan and I hope that when you do this, I'd love to see video to see how it goes, and then I can help you tweak things if needed. And do you have any concerns or like specific questions about how you might implement this plan.
Agnes: I think my only issue will be is getting my dog's attention away from him. With the two gates, obviously she'll keep her distance, but it's the like fixating. She'll get frustrated and like whine and things and she's not extremely food motivated. My only. Highest value are like hot dog pieces and like tennis balls. So, I'm like, if those don't work I'm gonna be like, okay, what next do we try?
And my concerns with the tennis balls she gets just very excited. She'll get distracted, but she'll get excited. So, I'm like, is that gonna be counterproductive or just...is just getting distracted?
Naomi: Okay. This is a perfect question. So, the question's let's boil it down to if this doesn't work, what now?
Agnes: Yeah.
Naomi: Yeah. No, I think there's two parts, right? Yes, I agree. The tennis ball, having the excitement built into it is not the emotional state that you want her to be in during these setups. You want her to be relatively calm. So, I would not use the tennis ball unless you're like, this is an emergency and you need to get her away and then close the door.
Short of like dragging her - if you toss a tennis ball into another room and she'll go for it. Fine. Like that's, you know, do whatever you need to for safety slash as moving her in as least adversive way as you can. So that's where I would use the tennis ball if you need. But I probably wouldn't have it on you because then she would know that the tennis ball is an option and then we would have lots of whining and all of that stuff.
So, the goal is no tennis ball. You can have it on a shelf just in cases or whatever, right? So, what I would do first is practice with her, with the new gate set up, with the cat's door closed, or a blanket over his gate where you're just doing the activities that you're going to be doing when she can see him.
So she'll know what that feels like. She'll be able to...she'll be more likely to be like, Oh we've played this right in this exact same situation. We've played this game. Oh, there happens to be a cat over there. That will... it might not go that way, but we're stacking the deck in our favor that like, this is not a totally new thing that she's doing.
[Agnes: Makes sense.
Naomi: So that would be number one. And number two is if the cat is still there... he's still there. If the cat being there is still a problem, that she's still way over threshold, then yes, we would need to troubleshoot. So, we would end the session. We would cover...we would close his door, we would cover the gates, whatever we need.
There's no need to try to push through it. We would have to troubleshoot that. That's one of another reason why like getting footage is super-duper important. But if she won't listen to cues, which is totally possible, see if she will just eat hot dogs scattered on the floor.
Agnes: Okay.
Naomi: Does she eat scatters? Have you practiced scatters with her?
Agnes: Yeah, like something I do is just like a version of fetch. Like fetch and dropped the treats on walks and stuff so that she's like looking for those instead of looking at dog across the street.
Naomi: Yes. Because that's perfect. So, the goal is disengage that stare. If she needs help with that and that food scatter is like the easiest thing that you can do to...
Agnes: Okay.
Naomi: ...move her head away. Try that. If she's readily eating scatters but isn't able to do other stuff, then like we're almost there.
Agnes: Okay. So that's a good sign.
Naomi: Cool. Does that help you with some ideas for contingency plans?
[Agnes: Yes. Yes it does. Extremely so.
Naomi: Good.
Agnes: As soon as we're done, I can do that. Some practice beforehand, before he's even there. Definitely can do.
Naomi: Exactly. And I would practice with different types of food too. So, I wouldn't immediately go to hot dogs if you don't need to.
Agnes: Oh?
Naomi: So, what that looks like, right? You're gonna practice with a few different things. See if she'll, she's with you in that kind of just training mode when he's not visible. If she needs hot dogs to just to do that, then she's not ready to have him there, right? Cause like where do you go from hot dogs?
Agnes: Yeah.
Naomi: And we don't want her to be reliant on such a high value food treat for these setups because again, there's like that conflicting feeling right? Like she wants the high value treat, but it's still too much. She might be getting frustrated, frustration built into this whole thing. So, I usually recommend when we get to setups, if we're doing it at the right level like under threshold or just slightly at threshold, their regular food or medium value treats is what we should be using.
Cuz I wanna make sure that we're not keeping them closer, keeping them invested because of the food and not because of their actual comfort level.
Agnes: Okay. That definitely makes sense. And got some lower value that I can start with. Absolutely. Cool. That makes sense.
Naomi: All right. So, what is the thing that you're going to do today to get started on this new regime?
Agnes: I, two things is at one point, I think later today after I take her on a walk, is the swapping. So, when she's chilling out, she'll be tired in my roommate's room and he can explore the. And then after that, I think put him back in my room and with his smell in the apartment, I think work on the gate set up and her just like basic commands and things like that you had just mentioned to do. And then I think maybe tomorrow is when I would attempt anything else but today, just those two things.
Naomi: Sounds great. And if you wanna follow her with your phone, like when she comes out of that room and she's Oh my god, cat smell. Like I would love to see that initial like reaction because we want her to not be so aroused by just his scent that like if we add his visual that it's, he's gonna be like immediately put over threshold. I wanna make sure that we're starting at the right level and that she like habituates to the fact that his scent is everywhere.
Agnes: Okay.
Naomi: Does that sound good?
Agnes: Yeah.
Naomi: Love it. I think that's all. I really look forward to hearing some and seeing some updates and I know that people who are listening as well will love to see a plan in action. So, the goal. To post those up in the show notes for this episode so we people can see how things progress. And I look forward to seeing how that goes.
Agnes: Wonderful. And I will definitely do that. I'm excited to see how it goes myself.
Naomi: All right. I look forward to chatting with you later.
Agnes: Thank you again for all the info and you as well
Naomi: I know you're curious how these action steps panned out in real life. So, check out photo and video updates from Agnes in this episode's show notes. You can find the link to those in the episode description in your podcast player. And if you're struggling with your cats and dogs, you can be awesome like Agnes, and do a dog and cat chat with me on the podcast. I'm here to answer questions, help you come up with next steps and offer support for anyone who has cats and dogs. To schedule your chat, go to praiseworthypets.com/chat. And that's all for this episode, you wonderful cat and dog people. I will see you next week for more It's Training Cats and Dogs.
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