The Training Starts As Soon As You Walk In The Door - with Josh and Mandy Boutelle
What are the first things you should do when you bring a kitten home to live with your adolescent dog? In this chat with fellow pet professionals Josh and Mandy Boutelle, we talk about how they helped their new kitten, Fig, quickly settle into life with their exuberant dog, Fern.
What you'll hear in this episode:
how they started creating positive experiences for the pets as soon as Fig came home
why they waited a week before posting online that Fig had joined their family
what signs indicated that Fern might be able to coexist with a cat
why they didn't keep Fig and Fern separated for long
why kittens and potted houseplants don't mix
To listen to the full episode, click here to open it in your podcast player or press play below:
Fern and Fig
Day 1, 7:30pm - The Homecoming
Fern hangs out in the backyard
Fig goes to Josh’s office (his safe space)
multiple barriers go up (so Fern doesn’t have direct access to Fig’s door)
Read Mandy’s Instagram post about that first night here.
By Day 3: short training sessions together
Current Status: BESTIES
Snuggle Buddies
Nature Explorers
Update 10/19/2022 from Mandy:
Listened to the episode yesterday and really enjoyed it!!!! Also cracking up at the changes we’ve experienced since we chatted.
He TOTALLY meows at me to go outside in the yard now and will throw a fit if he does not get in the yard at least ONCE a day 😅🤣 he also now meows to be with Fern if they’re in other rooms.
Oh and he has total free reign of the house and no plant casualties. Though he did pull my succulent out of its pot the other day when I left my office open 🤣
What’s Next for Fern and Fig?
trick titles?
camping
being left alone together
This episode’s guests:
Pulling from their backgrounds in dog training & graphic design, Josh & Mandy Boutelle own and operate digiwoof and Woof Cultr where they help other behavior pros & spread the message of ethical training methods.
You can get in touch with Josh and Mandy here:
digiwoof
info@digiwoof.com
Woof Cultr
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Mandy: Sample clip: And I just sat there. He was in the carrier in the back and I was like, "What's our game plan?" Like the second we go in, it's training.
Naomi: Hello you cat and dog people. This is It's Training Cats and Dogs - the show for people with both cats and dogs who want peace in their home and peace between their animals.
I'm Naomi Rotenberg, your source of practical strategies for keeping everyone in your multi-species household safe and sane. And today's episode is a chat with pet professionals about how they've used their expertise to navigate their relationships between their own pets. Our guests today are Josh and Mandy Batel, and I was so excited to chat with them. Let's hop into it.
Let's learn a little bit about them pulling from their backgrounds in dog training and graphic design. Josh and Mandy Butell own and operate digiwoof and Woof Cultr, where they help other behavior pros and spread the message of ethical training methods to the world. During our chat, we talked about how their new kitten, Fig, came into their lives. Quick spoiler: Josh had hatched a covert plot. We also talked about how they had a semi plan for integrating Fig in with their dog Fern and how they're currently using their R+ training backgrounds to think on their feet. We also touched on how house plants and young energetic kittens don't mesh very well.
I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Mandy and Josh as much as I did.
Hi Josh and Mandy, I am so excited to have you both on the podcast. Welcome.
Josh: Hello. Thank you for having us.
Naomi: I think this will be a kind of different episode for everyone cuz you guys have taken your training backgrounds a little bit to the, I was gonna say to the left, but it might be to the right, I don't know. Some direction.
Josh: Veered off course.
Naomi: Like not your traditional, "I train dogs and I go into people's houses" kind of thing.
Mandy: Yeah.
Naomi: So, before we start, and we are now in the this is not a baby podcast, so this two truths and lie thing is ingrained in what we do. So, we want to get to know you as humans before we start talking dogs and cats. So, tell me two truths and a lie about Josh and Mandy and I will try to identify the lie. Ready?
Josh: You go first.
Mandy: Oh, you go first.
Josh: Oh, okay.
Naomi: All right. Okay. Two truths and lie about Josh. Go.
Josh: Okay. So, I graduated from UC Berkeley. I have a deep love of deep-dish pizza and my favorite band as a child was Dave Matthews.
Naomi: Oh, you're such a basic bitch. No, I'm kidding.
No. Okay, shoot. Oh, I love those cuz they have nothing to do with animals. Okay. UC Berkeley Okay. So, you do live in California. Deep dish pizza is not pizza, It's pie. That's a different argument that we will have offline. And Dave Matthews. God, are you more alt than Dave Matthews? I don't know. Oh, this is hard guys. Why am I so bad at this game? Why do I do this to myself? Okay, I am gonna say, you don't like deep dish pizza?
Josh: That was the truth.
Naomi: Damnit, what's the lie?
Josh: Graduating from UC Berkeley. I am a college dropout, actually. Junior college dropout.
Naomi: Fun.
Josh: Yes.
Naomi: I like when, again you go left of center or right of center. So, we will talk. Sure. Let's talk. We're gonna talk about your life and like how you got to where you are. So, fuck Berkeley, right? We don't need them. You're doing perfectly fine on your own. Tell us. Okay, so you do like deep dish pizza.
Fine. I'll accept it. Dave Matthews. Cool. Why that? I was a nineties kid. I get it. ? Yeah. Okay. Do you have a favorite song?
Josh: Ooh. Probably Ants Marching.
Naomi: I sang Ants Marching in my high school acapella group. Those were the times.
Mandy: Cool. You were in acapella group?
Naomi: Yeah. And in college too. I'm really, I'm like, yeah. I'm the coolest person you guys know. Definitely. So great. I zero for one on me. Excellent. Good job. It's fine. I'm still here. Let's play another round. Okay, Mandy. Okay, let's go. I'm like warming up. Let's go.
Mandy: Okay. I am one quarter Filipino. I did hair professionally for eight years and I surfed ever since I was a kid I think I started when I was around 12
Naomi: Surfed in the water and not the internet.
Mandy: Water
Naomi: Uuuugh guys! Okay. Surf water. Fine. I'll accept. That makes sense to me. Quarter Filipino...hair. Oh, darn. Okay, let's go with hair is the lie.
Mandy: That is the truth. From 18 to, I think I stopped around like 24.
Naomi: I was gonna say, you must have started when you were a baby.
Mandy: Yes, I did.
Naomi: Cause you're not old . I thought it would be something like, "Yeah, I did hair, but like for four years" or something. Like how you, you have like almost the truth, but then you should tweak it a little bit. No. I'm terrible at this. I need to come up with something. God, it's just not good for my morale at the beginning of all of these episodes.
Mandy: It's quick defeat.
Naomi: It's just quick defeat, and then we raise the ROR with really wonderful discussions, so I'm okay with it. Great. We learned about you and we learned about my brain not working. So, let's talk about your animals, which is I'm good at that part of it.
So, I heard on the internet, And by heard, I mean you guys posted really cute pictures of your new kitten. So, I would love to know about how Fig came to your house and how Fern your resident dog, decided that was gonna be an okay thing. Tell me a little bit about the process.
Mandy: Yeah I like to joke that I was bamboozled into adopting Fig a little bit. So, Fern, she is a Cattle Dog, Husky, Chihuahua. She is all the things. Very active, very intelligent, very energetic, and hyper and crazy. And let's note that she does not turn two until later this month. So, she's still an adolescent. Everyone probably thinks we're crazy. So, it for a while, like Fern just, she loves dogs. She gets along great with dogs, plays great, but she's always just a little too much, a little bit of a Tarzan.
So, Josh has always just been planting the seed a little bit since we adopted her. And after losing our senior dog Pip, he was just like, I really, I wonder if she'd be good with a cat. Like it's just, maybe she'd be a cat dog. There are cat dogs. And we ran into our neighborhood cat like right outside our door, not like maybe two months ago.
And her body language was just, fully relaxed, no pile erection on her back. Very loose wag, no stress. And I was just like, That is crazy. That's weird. And I came inside and I'm like, I shouldn't tell him this, but I'm gonna tell him this. And so, I told him and I was like, her body language was just, she was curious. She wasn't upset, she wasn't stressed. And I found that so fascinating and so we just kept planting this. He kept just, a little more . And he'd show me cats online and I was just I wanna do it right. Raise 'em from a kitten so that they have a good experience with Fern.
Like really plan it out. Maybe we'll do it when she's four. And then he was just like, it was a long day, we had been doing yard work and he was like we gotta run errands. And I was like, Okay. Sure. And he was like, Oh, we gotta go to Petco because we need to get some shoes for Fern. Don't judge us right now.
Naomi: I'm not! I'm laughing at the underhandedness of Josh's plan.
Mandy: I said, "Did you plan this?" afterwards.
Josh: Not at all.
Mandy: He goes, "I mean, I hoped".
Josh: Yeah. I hoped they had something in there, but, and I...
Mandy: Something.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah.
Mandy: And so, we walk in and I just, I beline to get past where they have the adoptive cats from the local shelter where we're at. And so I tried to beline, he goes, Oh honey, look. And I'm like, I walk over and I'm like, Of course there's one kitten and he's under the socialization age. Damn it! And I'm, he's cute and it's a boy. And we wanted a boy and he was like the last one from his litter of three in there and it's just like pulling on the heartstrings. And so I was like, Okay, let's go home and we'll think about it. Read his page, thought about it for 20 minutes, made a very impulsive decision and brought the cat home.
Naomi: Love. Okay. Josh is just like smiling evily to the side of here, but it worked out just like the nice little grin.
Josh: Yeah.
Mandy: And we got home and I was like, "Did you plan this? Did you know they had kitten for adoption"? And he was like "I hoped". Yeah. I was like, "You bamboozled me"! He arranged the antecedent accordingly.
Naomi: He did. He did. Yes. That planted... the distance antecedence of all of planting. He put the neighborhood cat right outside your door, right? Make sure to create some kind of positive CER for, from her. There was a lot of training that went on there. Ugh, this, so it's the same. People have this story of just cats just...
Mandy: Pop into our lives.
Naomi: They just appear and they choose you, right? And so, I'm quite pleased that he came to you. And so, fern now has a kitten. So, Josh you really wanted this kitten. You were like, I totally have a plan for how we're gonna integrate this.
Josh: Totally, yeah. Roughly. Yeah. Yeah.
Naomi: Uhhuh. Okay. So, what was your plan before the kitten came home?
Josh: Totally. Yeah. So, I mean, weighing pros and cons as far as the setup of our house. So, we have an old house that is like a closed floor plan. So, there's lots of doors, lots of ways to...
Mandy: ...gates and stuff...
Josh: ...manage and whatnot. So, that was a plus. And then, Fern, as Mandy said, Fern's reaction to neighborhood cats and whatnot. So, that was, my thought. And then, my, my worst case was, we're, we are providing this kitten with good socialization, being very careful about introduction. If it doesn't work, then we are fosters that are going to....
Mandy: If anything, making an impact in its life.
Josh: Yes, exactly. That was my thoughts. We waited a good week to post about it, just to make sure, things would work out and whatnot. But yeah, so that, that was my half-baked plan.
Naomi: It's more baked than other people have had, so that's good. Yeah. The house setup. Great. You went in with excellent expectations that were sufficiently low and you had a contingency plan for if it didn't work out. So, I think, A+ from me. Totally fine. If you cared about how I would grade your plan before the kitten come home came home. So, you brought him and he and Fern...you kept them separate, I'm assuming, for at least the first day-ish.
Mandy: Yeah.
Josh: Trying to, yeah.
Mandy: Yeah, we pulled into the driveway and I just sat there. He was in the carrier in the back and I was like, "What's our game plan? What are doing"? Like the second we go in it's training. We need to have her prepared. So, I went and got Fern, put her in the backyard while Josh brought Fig in, brought him into his office, got him set up. I spent time with her getting her YaYas out a little and then it was training the second... and mind you, we brought him home at 7:30 at night. So, everyone's tired. It was, yeah, it was chaos the first night .
Naomi: So, he was in Josh's office and...
Mandy: Which is inside the house.
Naomi: Okay. And Fern had the rest of the house. How did she react when she smell? New smells coming from the bottom of daddy's office door?
Mandy: We bought, we took his carrier. So, we have a baby gate. So, when you walk out from the office, it's a hallway, living room and then kitchen. So, we had her in the kitchen behind a baby gate so she couldn't even run up to the door. And, I got his carrier, put it in the kitchen and let her sniff the carrier and gave her just a jackpot of treats all around the carrier and let her check it out.
Naomi: Okay, cool. And she did what?
Mandy: She was really curious. Very interested. Lots of wags, lots of sniffing. Just there's someone here, this is exciting. Someone's here.
Josh: Little I noticed...
Mandy: She's frustrated.
Josh: ...she has stress, some stress yawns and kinda, antsiness.
Mandy: Yeah. So, some yiping and some just " I wanna say hi! Who's this guy? I don't know this guy".
Josh: Yeah. So, our worry was, which she knows there's a cat there and everything. We were... initial like articles, before listening to more of your podcasts and whatnot were saying leave them separated for a week. And we're like, "How the hell are we gonna do this"? So yeah. Yeah.
Mandy: The first...yeah, the first night we had him in the office away. Oh. I think we had him in a very big dog crate too. And then we barely cracked the door here. We had an Ex-pen in front of the door and then a baby gate in the hall. So, she had two, three barriers that so that she couldn't even see him.
And we just did lots of flat look at that and keeping it really short. And we just did tons of that, like the first night, first day. And then by day three they were able to train together in the kitchen and I'm pretty sure I have a video of that somewhere on Instagram.
Naomi: Oh, I would love to write a little, here's how it went thing in like the show notes for this. That would be great.
Mandy: Yeah.
Naomi: The thing I like how you touched on okay, traditionally you keep them totally separated for a long time, but then when you have a dog like Fern who is, we know she's friendly and the barriers are just gonna drive her nutty. And the frustration is just so much that it might actually cause negative association.
Mandy: Starting to.
Naomi: Yeah, and you have to figure out something else to still keep the safety, but you can't just stay it totally separated. It's gonna make it worse. So, did you, were you ever worried that she was gonna hurt Fig accidentally? Probably. Cuz she's bigger than him.
Mandy: Especially when he was really tiny.
Josh: Yeah. I'd say we had at least a week before there was interaction without some kind of gate in between. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, as of lately, he's growing a lot more so the worry is less, but definitely, yeah. How old was he when we got him?
Mandy: We had him at 12 weeks.
Josh: Yeah. Cattle dog yanking on a kitten leg or whatnot. So...
Naomi: Yeah. And she is a mix of breeds. I mean, not that Chihuahua really, but that tend to come through my desk who enjoy chasing small critters. So, does she chase him? Is that a game that they play or has she been able to remain relatively calm? She's an adolescent, so I don't know what calm looks like in your world.
Josh: On how her needs have been met that day, a little bit. Time of day. And then how psychotic Fig is as well. So, they, yeah they do play like stalky games with each other if they're both active, they'll we have like a railroad room by our back bedroom that goes all the way to the living room. And that's like the longest...
Mandy: That's their course.
Josh: Yeah, that's like the runway. So, they bounce back and forth between the couch and then under the bed and whatnot.
Mandy: We call their bed their like little fort and we'll just look under the bed and they'll just be laying there together, just like making out, playing. And I'm like, we come out like you guys, let's do this out here. And they're just like, "Nah, we're having fun." it's ridiculous. It's so cute.
Naomi: It's really interesting to me because those like long hallway can be so bad, right? If there is tension you can't pass each other. You can't, you're stuck. And so, it's wonderful that they're able to take that space and play.
Mandy: Yeah, it's fun.
Josh: Totally.
Naomi: Yeah. If there was... I'm just trying to think of dogs who are reactive and you're trying to have them pass each other on the same side of the sidewalk. It's that's what I would look like. So, that is, the fact that is not a sticky spot is excellent. Like even if animals get along really well, like having those small areas where there's a lot less.... fewer behaviors that are appropriate to do in that space. Totally works out well that they figured it out.
Josh: Yeah.
Mandy: Oh yeah.
Naomi: And the making out under the couch. That's really...
Mandy: Yeah. They play under the couch, under the bed. I'm like, that's, I wouldn't do that with any other dog.
Josh: But it also handicaps her too.
Mandy: It does. Yeah.
Josh: So, I feel like that kind of adds to, like him feeling a bit more confident with play and whatnot. .
Naomi: Oh, so it sounds wonderful. So, they, when you mentioned they were training in the kitchen by day three, what did that training look like?
Mandy: I actually, I have a video I could totally send you at some point. But it was, I think we had Fig on a chair in the kitchen, and then he had jumped down and Fern was just offering like downs for Josh and he was just like okay, I'll treat you. And then Fig's "Hey, what about me though"? And so, then he would treat Fig and then he would treat Fern. And so, they were just sitting there side by side in front of Josh just... and they didn't care about the other. They were just like...yeah.
Josh: And he was on the table.
Mandy: No. There's a video of him on the floor, but I mean, they just, they were able to just co-train, like together. No problem. I, by day four or five, I was doing station training with both of them. So, I had him up on a basket that we have all our like living room blankets in. And so, I had him up away and then I had her up on a chair and I was just training both of them. And we, I think that kind of really helped their bond too because they, she learned that it's not a threat to her.
There's no issue, there's no tension. We're gonna work together. Coexist. And one thing to really touch on that we were really shocked with her is she is a big resource guarder with dogs. Big resource guarder. We experienced that a lot with Fig or not Fig. Pip, her senior dog. She would resource guard, food, resource guard the couch.
And so that is something we were aware of and we were just like, we gotta really make sure with Fig that doesn't happen day and night. No resource guarding at all. And we were just like, Yeah, knock on wood.
Naomi: Still very good. He's young .
Mandy: But it's very it's fascinating to us. And so, we've just been trying to really capitalize on that with both of them for sure.
Naomi: Yeah. Do you have a sense of why that might be? We can talk some theories here.
Mandy: Pip was very, cuz he had canine cognitive disorder, so I think he was not too spatially aware of what he was doing a lot of the time. And Fig. I feel like he doesn't really care too much about what she's doing.
Josh: I feel like Fig has been picking up on her body language a little bit more too, and...
Mandy: That's true.
Josh: ...he's able to...there are times where I see a little bit of a hard stare when she's laying on the couch. And I notice him sort of pause and then maybe do some displacement go up on his cat tower and whatnot.
Mandy: But it, the communication's more clear between them for sure.
Josh: Yeah. Which is funny. Yeah.
Mandy: With inter and different species, which is even more interesting.
Naomi: It is. I mean, the specific body language that you just talked about, hard stare and then looking away in a displacement type. That's across species like they, that means the same thing in dog languages as it does in cat language. So, that's a pretty, pretty easy one. Hard stares are a warning and so Fig is from a young age like learning to understand those some signals, which I think is wonderful. And that's actually the way I define coexistence anyway, it's not like the absence of conflict. It's that they have the skills to communicate with each other when some conflict does arise, so that it doesn't escalate to a point that's unhealthy. Now, does that mean that that stair is not gonna get more if he pushes it.
Mandy: No, not at all.
Naomi: We dunno. So, I like that you're saying, okay, it's going really well now we're not gonna rest on our laurels and say it's gonna be fine. We're going to keep reinforcing appropriate behaviors so that the chances of it going south is much less. So, I'm gonna transition a little bit here cuz y'all know like you. You have skills, you know what you're talking about., You're mentioning all these Latin pre, station training and all that stuff.
So, for people who don't know you, as you know what you do and your backgrounds, tell us a little bit about how you do all these things and where you are now from so we can catch up on that information. I think it's very relevant here. .
Josh: Yeah. So, I... I've been, so to some extent been around like behavior world for a good portion of my life. So, starting as a kid I had a relative that was the head of behavior and training at the San Francisco SPCA so I was able to go learn about positive reinforcement training, you know.
Mandy: Volunteer.
Josh: Volunteer. Learn from Janice Bradley and whatnot as a child, which was really cool. Then I took some time off to be a teenager after that. I did move to San Francisco to pursue graphic design. I got a job at SF Puppy Prep, which is like a puppy day school in the city. Fell in love with that and dropped out of college. So, started my own dog walking business, transitioned to dog training. I had that business for about 10, 11 years. Ended as a CSAT. So, stepping's trainer. And since then, I've transitioned into to digiwoof and so combining the graphic design training world together. So, that's my story to nutshell.
Naomi: It's a good trajectory. I'm quite impressed with the SPCA. That's a really good SPCA to know.
Josh: Oh yeah.
Naomi: I mean, really famous in. The country, so I'm jealous. Yeah. So, what is digiwoof?
Josh: Yeah. So, we're a small marketing agency for R plus pet professionals. We do full-service branding websites, copywriting, and then also have software which you are familiar with.
Yeah, I am.
So yeah. I won't brag too much, but I think what we have going on is pretty cool.
Naomi: It is very cool. Look, if you don't...you're a guest on a podcast, so if you can't brag a little bit and be like, "Hey, I have got a cool thing" this is where you're supposed to do it. Okay. Onward, we'll move on to Mandy and what your life is like so that Josh can. Take a break for a second.
Mandy: I've always been around animals. I actually grew up with cats up until I was 10. Always had cats, never had a dog. Had my first dog when I was 12. He was a senior Shetland sheep dog that I adopted from the pound myself with my own $20. And then, went on to be a rambunctious teenager, moved to San Diego, went to beauty school, did hair for eight years, professionally. Specialized in hair coloring.
Moved to San Francisco to become a stylist there. Met this guy online, and then I was just like, "What do you mean you get to work with dogs all day"? I hate dressing up and talking to people all day. Please hire me" because he was trying to hire a new dog walker and I was just like, "Please, hire me, like I hate my job".
And so, I went through the dog walking academy. Became a certified professional dog walker. Was a dog walker for 3...2, 3 years, and then I went and got my training for certification and then I was a trainer for a while with Josh. We were doing both walking and training full time. Exhausting.
Driving around San Francisco and then he had started digiwoof. And then I just, as a trainer, I was just like, I wish I had some cool t-shirts to wear while I was training that like touched on our methods. It'd be cool. And I had always told him like, "Oh, I wish I had a T-shirt that said this, or he said this" and he was playing around with graphic designs. So, he was making designs and he was just like, I really think we could make a t-shirt business for R plus professionals and I was just like, there's, rhat's not, there's not a market for it. It's not gonna happen. But if you wanna.
Naomi: That's funny.
Mandy: You know what Woof Cultr is now then you know but so we started Woof Cultr, which is just an apparel business where we put all our fun, quirky, nerdy, professional, RPL related designs on apparel, and then R plus trainers blew it up. So, I do Woof Cultr and I'm also the brand strategist for digiwoof. So, I took my training knowledge, my Woof Cultr knowledge for growing a business and now I'm gonna help digiwoof do that for their clients.
Naomi: That's amazing. I have the, "No, we can't talk. We're training sweatshirt" by the way. Okay. It's so freaking comfy. And I just love how you guys like are like a team. You figure it out like you're helping each other even from the beginning. First of all, how did being in a relationship and being his employee go? Cause now…we're now we're getting a little juicy. Spill the tea.
Mandy: We always, that is the question. That is the juicy question. We always get...we always, his quick comeback with that was always, he's the boss at work. I'm the boss at home.
Naomi: Makes sense. . I like it. You have equity, right? It's just, you gotta separate some things a little bit.
Josh: Yeah.
Naomi: And you both work from home.
Mandy: Yes.
Naomi: So, that's also tough. But I think you, it's great. I think like there, you've carved out specific niches - niches. Whatever the hell the word is - we're really missing in R plus world. Yes, there is a market for, I wanna say loud and proud that I, this is what I do.
This is what I'm doing with my dogs currently, right? And R plus we suck at marketing. That's as a general rule, right? Like we don't like talking about our that much. There is a lot of messaging that has to be worked through in order to be effective in terms of marketing. So, there's definitely a need to have a brand strategy and have a marketing strategy.
So, I thank you for what you are contributing to the R plus community. Back to all the other stuff. So, while you're having all of these professional changes, starting cliques, changing to brand strategies things and all of that. You're like, Cool. Now we have a cat. That's a project. You mentioned, Mandy, that you had cats growing up, but did you know that much about cat behavior together?
Did it go smoother than you anticipated? Less smooth. It was totally fine. You were like we didn't make any mistakes. I'm kidding. You always make mistakes. How did it go in terms of being in charge of a cat? How is that different than what you've done with Fern? All that?
Mandy: I think Josh severely underestimated what goes into cats? Yeah. I think he's severely underestimated how social they are and personalities they can have. , I didn't know much about behavior, but I did know how they operate. I did know what they require, what they need, and...but I mean, as in our training careers, I don't think either of us really worked with cats.
I think I maybe worked with two and they were not the nicest. . Because I was working with the dog, not the cat for the solution. It's been a very big learning curve for both of us, I think. But in the best way I can say that my training has really cleaned up. For sure, because my mechanics have had to slow down.
I've had to pay attention to things a bit more, and it's just, I mean, it's the same as a puppy, except they can go vertical and they have claws and they're up much later at night. But I think it's a lot of just giving them proper outlets, meeting needs, making sure we were doing all those things. And so, I think it was just me using the trainer brain puppy training brain that we had with Fern, and then finding ways to expand that beyond our usual scope. We did feel a little overwhelmed at the beginning. I wanna say probably.
Naomi: So, you...what is his favorite thing to train? Have you been working on like tricks with him or are you just working on some just general foundation skills?
Josh: I'd say he's been loving the outside time, definitely. So, we've been working on harness training and whatnot. He just finished up his final shots, so we're...
Mandy: On Monday.
Josh: So, we're taking him in the backyard more and he's learning leash walking.
Mandy: And he loves the harness now.
Josh: Yeah, he's been like willfully going up to put the harness on, which is...
Mandy: You pull it out. He just goes "Give it to me". So, if we will say he'll come running. He's passed out right now. Running like just his little like monkey kitten gallup he does, yeah. Just down the corner and it just, it's so cute. I love it. Josh has done a lot of touch training with him, so he's very good at that. He knows sit. I was telling him we need to have a competition between him and Fern to see who gets their novice trick title first.
Naomi: That would be fun. So, who you don't have enough to do, but I'm thinking that you. This, you have to make it a true competition where like one of you chooses one animal and one of you chooses the other and never the team tell me. So, you have to be like, we can't work together on that.
Mandy: No. Be fully competitive with it.
Naomi: Yeah, completely.
Mandy: We're very good at being competitive with each other.
Naomi: I say that as a comp, as a very non-competitive person. But I just feel like when you have that kind of goal, it has to be some kind of, you have to choose a side. Not cats, verse dogs. It's human verses human.
Josh: Yeah.
Naomi: So, is the goal to have him and Fern take walks together?
Mandy: Not necessarily.
Josh: Maybe like some outdoors. Yeah, like outdoorsy, maybe trail camping kind of thing. Not so much neighborhood outings.
Mandy: No. Mainly, I wanted to get him on the harness for mental and physical stimulation for him in the backyard so he can do things besides just staying inside all day. He knows that he gets that option to go outside.
Naomi: Does he... if he's very motivated to go outside, some issues that people come across is that the cat is always "I wanna go outside. I wanna go outside. I wanna go outside". So how have you set boundaries to make it clear that whining about it isn't gonna work. Has he tried it?
Mandy: So, he doesn't whine, he doesn't whine about it. He doesn't really ask to go out. Even if he sees Fern go out, he'll just be like, I'll watch her from the window, it's fine. But if we pull out the harness, then he's "Oh, hell yeah, let's go". But when he was a baby, before he got all his shots, I just worked on opening the door and you sit at the door until you are released.
Not sit, but just don't break the doorway until I release you. So, that I'm really grateful I did that in the beginning before he got his shots, because now if I open the front door and he has his harness on, he'll wait. And I'm just like, Oh my God. It worked. It paid off a little bit.
Naomi: You did have plans. You like Figured it out. You, you've done a lot of really good work with it.
Mandy: But it's funny cuz I don't even notice in the moment I'm doing it. It's just like habitual for me to do it cuz it's this is what I did with Fern. I'm just gonna do this Fig. They trained me overall.
Naomi: That's the thing about being a behavior professional and I think that we run a, we run into this a lot, is I don't... I have to do the thing in order to figure out how I did it so that I can explain it to you. Or yeah, I totally plan this out, but you're just like walking around and then you've come across something that works. And so at least for me, switching to like completely online training , that's been a thing that I've really had to work through is try to take a step back and say, "Okay, if I was doing this myself, how would I do it"? And then how do I explain it and how do I demo it, and all of that stuff. So, I understand you're just like let's see, let's do some stuff.
Mandy: That's how it's all been with him.
Naomi: Yeah, seems like it's working out.
Mandy: Yeah! A lot of trial error. I'm very grateful we have the behavioral background we do have, cuz I don't think we would...it, it'd be much harder for us for sure.
Naomi: So, if you had any advice for people who are dog people and they get the idea to get a cat, what about cats do you think that they should know ahead of time to prepare themselves?
Mandy: They need outlets. They need to go up. They need to be able to get out of the way and get sanctuary where they can. I mean, I keep looking over here because we have shelving on Josh's wall. We've put shelving around the house, cat trees, tables, any service he can get up on and that they have a lot of personality , a lot.
Josh: And I would ask yourself, how much do you love your houseplants?
Mandy: Oh my God.
Naomi: How much do you love your houseplants?
Mandy: Yeah. All my plants are in my office now. They don't live anywhere else but my office in my bedroom or they're very high up.
Naomi: So, your office is a no Figgy zone.
Mandy: It's a no Figgy zone if no one can watch the Figgy.
Josh: Yeah.
Mandy: Had to repot already cuz he decided to use it as a potty. I'm like, that's understandable. I get it, dude. But that's not the, I get it. Loose dirt. Confusing.
Naomi: Substrate preference. Very similar to litter.
Mandy: Right.
Naomi: Luckily, I have decided, I say I have enough beings to take care of in my house. No plants in the house. We have zero plants. My husband thinks that he likes working with plants, but he kills all of them. It's just he's I have a black thumb. He keeps trying though every year. But I refuse to...I refuse to have, to deal with that. I personally have not had to deal with the cats who love house plants, but my cat loves plastic. This is actually very common. Like plastic bags to nibble on them, which, similar texture to leaves, but unfortunately, we have a lot of plastic in our house. So, have you thought of any training plan besides for management? I'm looking at a plant right now behind you on a shelf in Josh's office where Figgy has a lot of freedom.
Mandy: Yes.
Naomi: So, tell me about, have you worked on this? Does he not care about this plant? How is this plant still alive?
Mandy: He doesn't care.
Josh: I have the theory that's probably gonna be gone in about two weeks.
Mandy: Yeah. If that.
Josh: He needs a few more vertical inches on his jump and then he's on that shelf.
Mandy: Yeah. I think the plant's gonna move out here pretty soon. Honestly, he already knocked an orchid off that shelf like earlier this week and it broke.
Naomi: Got it.
Josh: I may, if I want the aesthetic, I may...
Mandy: This needs to be fake.
Josh: ...glue some fake something on there.
Mandy: I've heard museum putty is amazing. A lot of people could do that.
Naomi: Yes. Fake plants and museum putty if you like that. Look, the reason I ask is because like in situations like this with plants and things like that, right?
Management, moving it away, preventing him from actually getting to the thing is most of the time what I would recommend. But there are people who love their house plants and it would be a, an insult to the house plant to move it and we need to meet our clients where they.
So, have you...okay. I don't want to insult you. Do you feel like there is a plan, there could be a plan to have to teach the cats, leave the plants alone?
Mandy: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I am actively working on that with him it's just a lot of redirecting. Or just, I'll just be like, hey let's you know, let's get this instead. And I'll get something that's like a plant and I'll lure him away from it and he'll be like, Oh, okay. It's way more fun. One thing I've been doing, and it's something I taught my cat when I was 10 and I thought it was the coolest thing cuz she could play fetch with paper balls. So I was like, you're gonna learn to like paper and you're gonna get a good CER to be crunching paper on.
Because that is what I did with her and it helped. And so I did this with him and it works. So he will go to get a plant and I'm just like (crunches paper) oh, okay, screw the plant and he'll just go do that. So I'm like, all right there. I just find paper and throw it. And so I've just been doing a lot of redirecting do this instead.
When Fern was a puppy, she would get into things a lot and we unknowingly taught her do something else. Literally, we will say the phrase, "Hey, do something else". And she'll be like, "Okay, what else do you want me to do"? And so, I'll be like, "Okay, go get your toy". And she's "Okay, I'll go get my toy". And so, we actually use that with her and Fig a lot when she'll be playing with him a bit too much. We'll be like, "Hey, can you go get your toy"? Or "Hey, let's do something else". And she'll just be like," All right, I'll go get my toy. I'll do something else". That's actually just to interject that on top of that.
Naomi: Yeah. I mean, the reason I ask is because people often get stuck with trying to come up with plans like past physical management. Okay. Obviously we need that at first. We don't want him to eat them to eat things or do things we don't want. But eventually you might wanna have plants like in your life , right? And people often are un, they're unclear about how they might move forward with that type of thing.
Mandy: I will say with that too, I only, the ones that are in his vicinity are cat safe plants. So, if he does chew on them, he's not gonna get sick. I do still try to interrupt him from doing that just so he doesn't get the association he can chew on plants.
Naomi: Yeah. Good point. We are not poisoning our cats. No. So, to wrap up my, I guess my last question would be, what do you envision your life like with Fern and Figgy in the next year?
Josh: Next year?
Naomi: I mean, I could ask you about a five-year plan, 10 year plan down the road, but I feel like the year is really...
Josh: Totally. Totally. Yeah. I'd say in the next year...
Mandy: He'll be an adult. That'll be crazy.
Josh: Yeah. I wanna say there will be less management, but still some management. So, definitely through his adult and I even after that too, you know. Alone time management and that stuff will maintain. But as far as like being eyes on play and whatnot hoping we'll be at a point where, Fern is appropriate.
Mandy: They can self-regulate.
Josh: Yeah, exactly. Self-regulating and whatnot.
Naomi: So yeah, that's, that is gonna be an acquired skill. The redirecting, interrupting, definitely important. As he gets bigger and he gets more pushy and adolescenty that's gonna be an ever changing project.
Josh: Always
Naomi: We cannot... sadly, it's never done.
Mandy: It's always pivoting and adjusting.
Naomi: Yes. And Mandy, what about you? Anything that you, any goals you have for them for.
Mandy: No, I mean, I think like it'd be really cool if we could eventually get him to go camping with us. That's definitely a goal on my list. I think I predict that they're just gonna be buddies. They already are. So, I just think it's gonna...it'd be great if we can get them to a point where they can be left alone together and we can know that they'll just hang out. Yeah.
Naomi: Yeah. I think that getting any of your videos for the show notes, and I will also. Put links to digiwolf and Clicks and Woof Cultr and all of that stuff so that everyone can check out all of the wonderful things you're contributing to the R plus Dog training community. And yeah. Is there any best way to contact you guys directly if people have questions or wanna follow up with the episode?
Josh: Yeah, they can go to our website, digiwoof.com. They can use the Clicks chat widget that's on there to get in touch with us or send us an email at info@digiwoof.com Yeah. We'll get back to you.
Naomi: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been wonderful, and I hope to talk to you soon.
Josh: Us as well.
Mandy: Yeah. Thank you so much.
Naomi: If this episode made you want to run out and buy a t-shirt or do a total rebrand for your R plus training business. Yay! Make sure to check out the show notes linked in this episode's description to see some videos of Figgy and Fern learning to live together, as well as links to both digiwoof and Woof Cultr
And if this episode gave you some ideas for working with your own pets, maybe about integrating a kitten into a home with an adolescent dog, I would really appreciate you taking a minute to spread the word about the podcast. You can rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or whatever app you're using to listen, or you can tell a friend or family member to check it out. Or you could hire one of those guys who stand on the corner spinning the signs around. Whatever works for you. Tell someone about It’s Training Cats and Dogs. Anyway, that's all for this episode you wonderful cat and dog people. I will see you next week for more It’s Training Cats and Dogs.
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