“What the hell is… Cat Testing?”
In this inaugural "What the hell is...?" episode, Naomi gives her cousin Kerry the skinny on the concept of cat testing.
This episode is for you if...
➔ your dog was "cat tested" in the shelter or rescue
➔ your dog wasn't "cat tested" in the shelter or rescue
➔ you don't know what "cat testing is"
➔ you just like the sound of the phrase "cat testing"
What you'll hear in this episode:
what cat testing is (sort of)
how it can help predict your dog's behavior around cats (sort of)
what you can do with the information you get from cat testing (sort of)
To listen to the full episode, click here to open it in your podcast player or press play below:
Related Resource(s)
Here’s the study I mentioned in the episode:
Goal of the study (the cat-related aspect):
Assess whether dogs who passed a temperament test (including a "good with cats” component) in the shelter exhibited aggression towards cats when living in a home.
How were the dogs tested?
The dog approached a cat in a cage (a more specific method isn’t included in the paper).
How was “pass/fail” measured?
A dog failed the test if they: snarled, growled, lunged, snapped, bit, stalked, or stared rigidly in the presence of the cat.
Dogs that failed were euthanized in the shelter.
How did they measure the behavior of the dogs who passed?After around 4 months in a home, the researchers categorized the adopted dogs’ behaviors, including how they currently behave around cats (and other animals):
➔ Dogs reported to bark, lunge, growl, snap, or bite in the presence of squirrels, cats, etc. were put in the “predatory aggression” category
So did those dogs end up being “good with cats”?
Nine of the 66 dogs in the predatory aggression category exhibited behaviors associated with aggression, about 14%. But 8 of those 9 dogs were reported to display moderate or high levels of aggression, including biting/snapping, growling, lunging, or barking.
Was this test a good indicator of the dogs’ future behavior towards cats? Sort of…?
Goal of the study:
Assess whether dogs who are “good with cats” and dogs who have previously injured or killed cats react differently to different types of cat-like stimuli (visual, olfactory, and auditory).
How were the dogs tested?
They had access to:
- realistic cat stuffed animal
- smell of cat urine
- recordings of cat vocalizations
How were the dogs’ behaviors measured?
Timing how long each dog spent orienting towards each stimulus.
What were the results?
All the dogs were more responsive to the sound of cat vocalizations than to the sight or smell of “cat”. Interestingly, the “not good with cats” dogs spent significantly longer orienting to the cat sounds than the “good with cats” dogs.
Was this test a good indicator of the dogs’ future behavior towards cats? Well, that wasn’t what they studied (since they used the dogs’ known history with cats as a way to categorize them). But it does indicate that including cat vocalizations in shelter “cat testing” might be a good thing to test in future studies!
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[00:00:00] Naomi: Preview Clip: If that dog is then adopted into another house with a scaredy cat who hisses and swipes and tries to book it every time they see the dog Yes, that is also a cat. But to that dog that might be a completely different kettle of fish.
[00:00:16] Hello, you cat and dog people. This is It's Training Cats and Dogs. The show for people with both cats and dogs who want peace in their home and peace between their animals. I'm Naomi Rotenberg: your source of practical strategies for keeping everyone in your multi-species household safe and sane. And today you'll hear the inaugural attempt of what I'm tentatively titling, What the hell is episodes?
[00:00:40] They're going to be deep dives into relevant cat and dog behavior and training concepts. And I'll be chatting with my favorite cohost - in quotes - AKA Kerry. She is my cousin and we've been talking to each other basically since birth so how's that for credentials? She knows close to nothing relevant about cats, dogs, or animal training, so she's got a fresh take, if you will.
[00:01:08] This episode centers around the subject of cat testing and Kerry and I talked about some ways shelters and rescue groups tried to assess whether a dog is quote unquote good with cats, what the hell good with cats even means, and whether cat testing is worth the effort. All right, let's hop right into it.
[00:01:29] Hi Kerry.
[00:01:30] Kerry: Hi.
[00:01:31] Naomi: Today we are going to talk about cat testing
[00:01:35] Kerry: Cap testing?
[00:01:36] Naomi: Cat. You know, like this is It's Training Cats and Dogs podcast
[00:01:40] Kerry: Oh yeah. That's what you do, right?
[00:01:42] Naomi: Yes. So it's cat. The felines
[00:01:46] Kerry: I'm with. I'm with you. I'm good.
[00:01:49] Naomi: Great. So cat testing. I can see in your face. You're like, Yeah, what is that?
[00:01:56] Kerry: Okay. Okay. So you test the cat to figure out if the cat learned what you wanted it to learn?
[00:02:02] Naomi: No! Wrong! You test whether the dog is good with cats.
[00:02:10] Kerry: Oh. Now there's a dog. All right. Okay.
[00:02:15] Naomi: We are on the It's Training Cats and Dogs podcast.
[00:02:18] Kerry: It's Training Cats and Dogs. All right. I got it.
[00:02:22] Naomi: Okay, so cat testing. It is when a dog who's usually in like a shelter environment, they're like, Cool. Do you have any experience with cats? We don't know. Maybe it's like an owner surrender or a stray. And they test whether the dog is good with cats before they can then say, adopt that dog out to a home that has a cat, for example.
[00:02:50] Kerry: This is important. Yes.
[00:02:53] Naomi: So what questions do you have about that, if any?
[00:02:56] Kerry: Okay. Wow. Can you just tell me how you do that?
[00:02:59] Naomi: Okay, So there's no, like universally tested, good way that everyone has said yes, this is a nice diagnostic test that seems to predict relatively well what the dog's behavior actually will be in the home. So you're like,
[00:03:17] that's not very helpful. But here's some things that people do. Some shelters have a cat room where there's like a bunch of cats in cages and they like walk the dog through that room and see what the dog does.
[00:03:31] Kerry: I find that room like so overwhelming. I'm a human being. Like even my nose is it smells in here and there's so much happening and I freak out.
[00:03:42] Naomi: Yeah.
[00:03:43] Kerry: So I can see it. It doesn't mean anything.
[00:03:46] Naomi: I mean, it's a thing that they do, right? Some people, some shelters do that.
[00:03:50] Kerry: Okay. Does that dog fail? Cause I fail.
[00:03:53] Naomi: We can discuss whether that's a good diagnostic criteria or not. Others are like, they have one singular cat in a room and the cat is like in a carrier.
[00:04:07] Kerry: Okay.
[00:04:07] Naomi: And they see what the dog does.
[00:04:09] Kerry: That would makes more sense to me. I can hang out with onecat. Or maybe two cats.
[00:04:13] Naomi: So you're putting yourself in the dog's mind. You're like, ok, I can handle that.
[00:04:18] Kerry: For purposes of this conversation, I'm currently a dog
[00:04:21] Naomi: And then, you know, theoretically they're looking for some specific behaviors that would kind of pass or fail them.
[00:04:30] Kerry: Ooh.
[00:04:30] Naomi: Them being the dog. To say yes, they've been cat tested and they passed. So we could talk about that in a second. Like what those behaviors might look like. Other things that they do is they'll walk around and have if there's stray cats, like out or outdoor cats near the shelter, they'll see what the dog does when they encounter those cats.
[00:04:51] Kerry: Ouch.
[00:04:52] Naomi: In the world. Other things that they might do, some shelters have like a stuffed cat that they might expose the dogs to.
[00:05:00] Kerry: A stuffed cat is not a cat!
[00:05:03] Naomi: I agree. It is not a cat. The theory is you're trying to test whether the dog is going to kill a cat, but you don't want them to actually kill a cat.
[00:05:15] Kerry: Okay.
[00:05:16] Naomi: I mean, theoretically. I'm sure there's a bunch of other things that other rescues and shelters have tried that I'm just not familiar with. Because it's not readily available information like out there of what cat testing actually means. So, there is a study that I'll link in the description that is more along the lines of walking through the cat room.
[00:05:45] Kerry: Mmhm.
[00:05:46] Naomi: And the study is based on what types of behaviors in that test actually showed up in the adopter's homes later.
[00:05:57] Kerry: Oh, okay. That seems pertinent.
[00:05:59] Naomi: Yeah, it's definitely pertinent. That's why I'm gonna link to it. But...
[00:06:02] Kerry: No, I meant for them to figure out what the actual answer is.
[00:06:06] Naomi: You'd think okay you know, that should be tested, whatever the method is. And basically a lot of times we're just kind of like shooting in the dark. You're saying like, if I don't have the information about how a dog does with cats, either from the previous adopter or the previous owner...
[00:06:24] Kerry: Yeah.
[00:06:24] Naomi: They said, "You know, we had a cat they got along well or didn't."
[00:06:30] Kerry: I heard why this a minute ago, but when you said killed, did you mean killed ?
[00:06:34] Naomi: Yeah.
[00:06:36] Kerry: Okay, so the bar is low.
[00:06:38] Naomi: Okay. That's not actually just the behaviors, right? We're not only looking for cold blooded murder. Usually the behaviors that would be like universally agreed upon would be like lunging towards the cat. Like being really stiff and staring and stalking the cat. Like kind of going into this predatory sequence of behaviors that would indicate that they - being the dog - are unable to disengage from the cat. And if there was no barrier between them, it is unclear what they would.
[00:07:16] Kerry: Wow. Unable to disengage actually sounds really relevant to humans. My ear was pricked up on that one. That's a good definition of anxiety. . And I was thinking about myself as a dog, and I thought if I was a dog, my response would be to sit there and stare at the cat and maybe shake like a chihuahua.
[00:07:34] Naomi: Yeah. So, I mean, staring and unable to disengage is kind of a large constellation of behaviors, right? So, you're looking at the entire dog. If they're stiff and staring and like kind of forward on their front leg. Like putting their weight more towards their front end and their ears are forward and like their mouth is closed.
[00:07:58] That whole constellation is very much I'm gonna go towards you in some way.
[00:08:03] Kerry: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:04] Naomi: In an inappropriate way. Versus a dog that is unable to disengage because they're staring and they would rather flee if possible. Yes. That's kind of what you were talking about, right? Either I'm stuck here so I'm gonna sit and shake, or get me the fuck out of here and try to like escape, right? Those would also not be great behaviors. Like we don't want the dog to be so stressed by the presence of the cat that they like shit themselves. Most of the time you're gonna see the first constellation of behaviors.
[00:08:36] Kerry: Okay.
[00:08:37] Naomi: That's what people tend to be worried about It's will this dog act in a predatory or overly excited manner towards this cat so that they either stress the cat a lot, or they're actually like seeking to harm.
[00:08:51] Yeah. That. So, your original question of okay, how do we know whether it works? Is this actually a good test? No, it's not. The thing is that like the whole con...I mean, taking a step back, like the whole concept of being good with cats is bullshit.
[00:09:12] Kerry: Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. All right. Way bold, hot take.
[00:09:16] Naomi: Yeah. Okay. While I drop that truth bomb what questions do you have about that?
[00:09:22] Kerry: Wow. What do I even do with that information? Like if I'm trying to, if I have cats and I'm trying to adopt a dog, like I'm gonna look at the little, the sweet little placards they put on the each of the doggy crates, and I'm gonna look at that and I'm gonna be like lulled into a false sense of security. And then there's been this whole rigamarole, and I don't have any idea what I'm getting into. It's lies.
[00:09:46] Naomi: It's all lies. Yeah. No. So look, it might be that the dog has experience with cats and therefore with most cats, they will do fine. Whatever fine can be defined as, right? Every animal is an individual, right? So if the dog lived with one cat and they grew up together , right? And that cat was relatively confident - they didn't run away or his, or puff or most of the time and everything was hunky dory - then if that dog is then adopted into another house with a scaredy cat who hisses and swipes and tries to book it every time they see the dog. Yes, that is also a cat. But to that dog, that might be a completely different kettle of fish. It's like I don't know how to interact with that type of being.
[00:10:37] Kerry: Yeah. Okay.
[00:10:38] Naomi: So, there's just like the individual behavioral tendencies within the same species, right?
[00:10:45] Kerry: That makes total sense. That also tracks with me for as a human. I guess if I was gonna organize myself into a question...
[00:10:51] Naomi: Yeah?
[00:10:52] Kerry: What am I supposed to do with that information? Like it seems as though I should throw the whole data set out and look at my animals and see how they're doing, right?
[00:11:00] Naomi: Yeah. So I would recommend doing that anyway. So like, the most reliable information that you could probably get would be some kind of combination of in depth observations from both a previous owner and or a foster family that has relatively extensive knowledge of that animal's behavior in multiple situations. That would be the best kind of most holistic picture that you could have. But you cannot, with any guarantee, predict behavior in the future, no matter what. That's just...
[00:11:37] Kerry: Okay.
[00:11:37] Naomi: And if anyone says they can, then they're lying. These are sentient beings, right? Yes, you might say, this is total bs. I don't even care about this information. Or you could say, all right. I'm gonna work under the assumption that they are not good with cats and then if they show behaviors that indicate that they actually are and that is in line with any of the information or history that I got from the shelter or the foster family or whatever, then I can be a little bit more trusting about what might happen in the future.
[00:12:16] Kerry: Oh, okay.
[00:12:17] Naomi: If you have a...you know, lived with seven cats and never harmed any of them. You could say cool, that's good information. I'm still gonna make sure that my animals are separated when we first come in. They can all decompress, we can do a slow introduction. All of those things that I recommend in general. But then if you're seeing, you know, very nonchalant behavior from the dog, kind of no matter what your resident cat does. Okay. You could probably go a little faster in that introduction.
[00:12:50] Kerry: Okay.
[00:12:50] Naomi: Than you would without any of that information.
[00:12:53] Kerry: Okay, cool. So it's not, I mean, I could say like guilty until proven innocent, but it's not really that. It's more like just having a system of structured boundaries.
[00:13:02] Naomi: Yeah.
[00:13:02] Kerry: That you gradually relax if you see green lights.
[00:13:06] Naomi: Yeah. And That's the MO anyway. Like even if you knew absolutely nothing about the animals, previously but the rate that you might progress would, might be a little faster.
[00:13:17] Kerry: Gotcha. Okay. I would love to hear you break down like two things. What do you what is the system of structured boundaries? I mean, I heard you talk about that in quick terms. Maybe you wanna say a little more. And then the other thing is what are the green flags? I love it when you talk about doggy body language.
[00:13:32] Naomi: Okay. I'm gonna basically say those should be two separate episode.
[00:13:36] Kerry: Okay. Okay. Yeah, I can see that. There's definitely a lot to say there.
[00:13:39] Naomi: Yeah. So like one, I'm gonna write that shit down. Like one is what are the general how to introduce animals steps. And then part du like in the infrastructure of said procedure, how do we know whether we should move on to each step?
[00:13:57] Kerry: Yeah.
[00:13:58] Naomi: Cool beans. Yeah. Put that on the docket.
[00:14:01] Kerry: To be continued.
[00:14:02] Naomi: T B D. Okay. So let me try to think. You know what we didn't talk about? We alluded to?
[00:14:09] Kerry: No, I dunno.
[00:14:11] Naomi: You're like, I don't know what we didn't talk about. I don't know what, I don't know. So I kind of alluded to this about the stress level of the cat.
[00:14:21] Kerry: Yeah. Yeah. What's going on for the cat here? I feel like we haven't represented the cat side of the argument.
[00:14:26] Naomi: Right? Like how would you feel if you were like used as a tool, a diagnostic tool,in which you had no agency whatsoever? So look, theoretically, if they were choosing a cat to do that kind of like individual, bring out an individual cat and have the dog react to said cat either in a carrier or behind a gate or whatever , hopefully they would choose a cat who is relatively confident in most situations.
[00:14:58] Kerry: Okay.
[00:14:59] Naomi: Because that would theoretically stress that cat out less than if it was like, let's choose a scaredy cat and then have a huge dog just do whatever it may or may not do in its presence.
[00:15:10] Kerry: Yeah.
[00:15:11] Naomi: But, so that would be nice, right? Let's think about the cat's welfare. And shelters often do, you know, try to know the cats a little bit more. But if it's like an open intake shelter where there's like really quick turnaround, they might not know the cats very well. Yeah, and that might also be kind of where the "Let's walk through the cat room" scenario might be a little bit more common. Cause they might just not have time to do a full "Let's pull out a cat and put them in a thing and go in a room and blurdy blur". So, going back to but diagnostically, you would actually want to see how the dog does with cats who have different behavioral repertoires.
[00:15:55] Cause that's the thing. Like if you just have a dog who's with a cat who's basically whatevs, then that's the least likely to throw up a flag.
[00:16:05] Kerry: Yeah.
[00:16:06] Naomi: That says this dog is not going to be able to handle living in a house with a cat that can't handle living in house with a dog. So cat welfare is extremely important. I think people are starting to think about that. And so it kind of calls into question again, like the whole practice, right? Like, why are we doing this? What is it actually telling us? And some more forward thinking rescues and shelters are saying it doesn't and we're not gonna do it anymore.
[00:16:36] Kerry: Probably save some time too. Although I'm appreciating all this stuff to people who do try. I'm sure they have enough to do.
[00:16:42] Naomi: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's like I said, there isn't some kind of like standardized thing, although I will kind of poke around a little bit more in the scholarly side of the interwebs to see if there's other studies that might have looked at things like this. But in general, like temperament testing in the way that we're talking about of putting a dog in random situations, like within the situation of a shelter and being like, is this going to actually translate to living in a home is, I would say it's like falling out of favor a little bit. Because people are realizing like the shelter environment is stressful as fuck for anyone involved, right? So like how true is it that it's like in any way analogous to like living in a house and the triggers that might come up here. So anyway, that's my spiel.
[00:17:38] Kerry: Spiel.
[00:17:39] Naomi: What did you... learned something? Did you learn something?
[00:17:41] Kerry: Oh my gosh. Are you gonna make me do like a conclusion?
[00:17:43] Naomi: No. This isn't a test. This is, this is what... do you have anything else that you're like, "Whoa, I did not know that and I need to know more." Or you're like, "Great. That was a nice wrapped up bow. Okay. I very appreciate that."
[00:17:56] Kerry: I'm thinking. Yeah, no, it makes sense. The shelter environment is not the home environment. That's one of my takeaways. I would love to hear more about the stuff that you said that you're gonna talk in separate episodes. That sounds really interesting. Yeah, I love thinking about how... first of all, I also love that you just kind of dropped and then we walked by, but that a scaredy cat is considered a real thing. Like I hope that's a clinical term.
[00:18:17] But anyway, thinking about how. The different personalities mesh and I really appreciate about you that you say these are individuals, these are sentient beings. And thinking about how I, if I were a dog, how I would be having a different conversation with each different kind of animal. Cause I know I do that with humans. Yeah. So, I'm good on the questions.
[00:18:37] Naomi: Cool.
[00:18:37] Kerry: But I'm good at summary statements.
[00:18:39] Naomi: Drop some knowledge, put some bullet points at the end. Hopefully we'll we'll reconvene to talk about structure of introductions and then, you know, some green flags and red flags to look for.
[00:18:51] Kerry: Yeah.
[00:18:51] Naomi: In some future episodes.
[00:18:53] Kerry: Yeah.
[00:18:54] Naomi: All right. This was fun. Love you. Bye.
[00:18:55] Kerry: Love you. Bye.
[00:19:00] Naomi: Thanks so much for listening. If you learned something new from this episode, or you just liked hearing me and Kerry shoot the shit about an interesting topic, please subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any other episode. And if you wanna learn more about Kerry and what she actually is an expert in, go to her website, www.kerrypinnisicounseling.com which you probably can't spell. So I will put the link in the episode description. Kerry is a human therapist and although I haven't personally partake in any of her services because we're related and that's slightly weird and hugely unethical, I hear that she's pretty awesome at what she does. Right now she's only taking short term clients for EMDR or Ketamine assisted therapy. And if you like me, don't know what those things are she has resources on her site that you can check out. And if you have any follow up thoughts, questions, opinions, stories about cat testing or any other subject that I've discussed on the podcast, you can become a member of the all new cat and dog people's online community. Head to praiseworthypets.com/supportthepodcast to get the skinny on this new program.
[00:20:11] And that's all for this episode. You wonderful cat and dog people. I will see you next week for more It's Training Cats and Dogs.
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