DIY Dog and Cat Training?
Have you been trying to do-it-yourself with your cats’ and dogs’ training? Most people will make some progress towards coexistence at the beginning, but reach a plateau and don’t know where to go from there.
So if you’ve been working with your pets for a while to try to get them to live together peacefully... and you're just not seeing the results you want? This episode is for you!
In this episode, Naomi talks with Menghan, one of the amazing members of the Cat and Dog Coexistence Club. Menghan breaks down her experience in the community and the transformations her cat (Lindy) and her dog (Penny) have gone through since getting more personalized help with their training plan and support from other super cool cat-and-dog people 😎
What you'll hear in this episode:
how Lindy and Penny's relationship started (and how they interact now)
why they didn't get much closer in the first month of Club membership
what Menghan was trying before she reached out for more help
when the pets had a breakthrough and things started to fall into place
To listen to the full episode, click here to open it in your podcast player or press play below:
And if you’ve been trying to help your dog and cat get along, and have decided that you need more personalized guidance, check out my Training Services for Pet Parents
Introducing: Penny (dog) and Lindy (cat)
At first Penny and Lindy couldn’t be in the same room together… now they train, sleep, and eat together!
A peek into Menghan’s journey…
Menghan joined the Club in March of 2022 🥳
Want to see exactly how things progressed from her first post to now? (aka videos, pictures and screenshots directly from the Club?)
Note: if the link doesn’t work at first, try opening it up in a Chrome browser
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So I think, after we started working together, we did our intake call and then I remember like for about a month or two I was like in the Club, but I didn't really do any part of it cause I had a little bit of apprehension, like, you know, posting things and I had never really done that before. But I think, you know, over time I got over my fear of posting in a group. And I started engaging more with the with the content and posting our training videos, which included Super Bowls some mat work and stuff. And that's when things, you know, really started progressing. So I guess the key to that is don't delay utilizing the resources because you're scared of judgment.
Do the stuff.
Hello, you cat and dog people. This is, its training cats and dogs. I'm Naomi Rotenberg, a certified professional trainer who specializes in helping cats and dogs get along, and this is the show for pet professionals and pet parents who want to level up their cat and dog coexistence skills. In each episode, we talk nerdy about how to get your pets or your client's pets living safer and happier lives together.
There are so many cat and dog people who come to me because they're frustrated with the amount of work they've already put in with their animals. Usually their dogs. And they aren't seeing the progress towards coexistence that they've been expecting. Are you in that situation? Maybe your animals can be in the same room as each other, but only if they're very still, or if there's a constant amount of treats being shoveled into their mouths.
Maybe your pets get into steering contests that clearly make each other uncomfortable, but neither of them will back down. Maybe you no longer fear for your pet safety, but they're still creeping around and looking over their shoulder. Well, you are not alone. It is super common to reach a plateau in your training, especially when you're trying to do it yourself.
It's very difficult to be able to identify what adjustments to make in your plan. And it's really tough to remain motivated through the inevitable, not so good days.
Mehan one of the amazing members of my cat and dog coexistence club was in the exact same spot as you, her cat Lindy and her dog, penny, we're making progress, but very slowly. I recently talked to her about how she went from floundering to focused with the help of the club. And I do love alliteration.
And I hope you get a lot out of this conversation. Let's hop in.
Hi Menghan. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and telling everyone about how it's been to work on your animal's coexistence.
No problem. Thanks for having me.
So for everyone to know about who your wonderful pets are and how we came to know each other. Can you tell us a little bit of background about who came first and what the initial situation was with your pets?
Sure. So we have one cat and one dog. Our cat, Lindy came first. Um, We adopted her back in 2013 when we were living in Boston. Cause we had just graduated from college. I decided I wanted a cat. And so one day we went to the shelter. We were looking for a shorthaired around one year old cat.
And we encountered this long-haired cat laying on her back in her litter box, licking her fairly large shaved belly. And we were like, yeah, that's our cat. On her thing it said that she was one and a half years old. And so we were filling out the paperwork getting everything set up and the guy there was like, just kidding, she's actually seven. She's missing a bunch of teeth. Do you still want her? We were like, yes, of course we want her. So we took home our seven year old longhaired cat. After looking for a one-year-old shorthaired cat. She lived with us as an only child for basically eight years. She moved with us from Boston to Los Angeles and lived to Houston.
Overall pretty content with her life, I hope. And then I've always wanted a dog, but I didn't have time to take care of one until fall of 2021. And so we started looking around for dogs. I knew I wanted a cat friendly dog, but I didn't really know, you know, what that meant.
So I just kinda looked on rescues for dogs that they said were cat friendly. And so that's how we found Penny. They sat on the thing that she, you know, was cat friendly, dog friendly, kid friendly. So we took her for a trial brought her home and she was very interested in Lindy. She wanted to get closer and close the distance, but she wasn't showing any signs that I thought were concerning.
But again, I didn't really know anything about dog behavior. And so after two weeks we decided we really loved her. She's about a three year old pit bull mix. And so we adopted her. And so starting out, I knew enough to like keep them separated with like gates and stuff, but I don't really know much else.
We were working with an in-person trainer at that time for a number of other things, but including the cat dog relationship and he had us work on reinforcing her engaging with me, you know, while we had her on leash, like in the presence of Lindy and things like that. Which was a bit difficult cause Penny was too over threshold at that point to really focus on me at all.
So it was a lot of like lunging and trying to get closer to the cat. And so we mostly just kept them separated. And we worked here and there on integration. . And it wasn't until a few months later that I found your podcast through social media and I started listening to it and started realizing how little I knew.
And then it was really after a few months of listening to the podcast and not making any progress on the cat dog relationship front that's when we started working with you. And that was probably about eight months ago at this point?
. So even though it said, Penny is cat friendly on her rescue paperwork. There's no like extra information about what that means. And so those first couple of weeks are potentially what she actually is like? So you, you mentioned that there was a lot of lunging and all of that stuff.
So did her behavior towards Lindy get more intense after those initial weeks?
I think so, yes. So when we first brought her home, she was interested in Lindy but I think she was still trying to decompress from just moving into our house. She actually was living with a great foster, who I'm friends with. So it wasn't, you know, bringing home a shelter dog and decompressing, but she was still getting used to her house, so she didn't exhibit a lot of the behaviors she started showing after living with us for about a month. . She was always very interested. And then as time went on especially when we would work on integrating them, she would start lunging more towards Lindy, but never, well, to my knowledge or to what I thought, never acting in a way that was considered aggressive or like that she wanted to hurt Lindy.
It just seemed like she wanted to get to know her. Or she was not sure about her and wanted to close the distance and just investigate her more, which is pretty consistent with her personality. Yeah.
Big doggo lunging and trying to close distance. Lindy super likes that, right?
Yeah, she loves it. She's a super outgoing cat who loves all animals and people. That was sarcasm because when we first brought, when we first brought Lindy home, she hid under the bed for like, two weeks. And she has never been very outgoing towards strangers, so she did not enjoy that at all.
So let's talk a little bit about how your house is slash was set up so that Lindy had a space to retreat to and they weren't coming in contact with each other. So you wanting them to see each other? Where was that happening in the house?
So we have a two story townhouse. And our bedrooms are upstairs. We have a very large main bedroom closet and bathroom. And so we set that up as Lindy's space, her litter box, her food, her water are all in there and there's a gate that only she can access. And then initially what we started out with was having a gate or at the bottom of the stairs.
So that downstairs is penny space. And then upstairs was Lindy's space. And the only time Penny went upstairs was to go to sleep. And at that time she slept in a crate so that Lindy could roam the whole house. So we were trying to do integrations with at first Penny on one side of the gate downstairs and Lindy on the other side, on the stairs.
And then eventually we tried to move up kinda so that we gated off our bedroom area. So that Lindy could have the bedroom and then Penny could have some of the upstairs area. Because my husband works from home and his office, which is in the guest bedroom is also upstairs. And Penny, you know, likes to be with us when we're home. And so we didn't wanna leave her downstairs the whole time.
Got it. So when your in-person trainer came, they were trying to do like an engage-disengage kind of situation, but as soon as Penny saw Lindy, she was like totally over threshold. How did you get Lindy down the stairs to even do those initial integration sessions?
It was partially with food. As she's gotten older, she's become very obsessed with food which is also due to a medical condition. But but she also, liked spending time with us. Cause she had lived with us as an only animal for eight years and so I think she was very used to spending time with us and she, before we got Penny would come downstairs and hang out on the couch with us. She's not like a huge cuddler, but she, you know, just like being in the same general area.
So partially, I convinced her to come downstairs with food. I didn't necessarily lure her, but I did reward her for being on the stairs or around the gate. And also because I think she just wanted to spend time with us because she was used to it. So it's of a combination of those two.
So Lindy would hang out on the stairs and Penny would be losing her brain box and eventually Lindy was just like, I can just stay here cuz I trust the gate?
Yeah.
Okay. So I feel like that's where I came in. You had I think if I'm trying to remember your intake info, it was something like they can be on the other side of the gate, but as soon as the gate is open, all bets are off or something like that.
Yeah.
So was Penny actually under threshold by that point when the gate was closed or she was still excited to see Lindy when she was on the stairs. She just wasn't barking and lunging anymore?
I would say I think she was decently under threshold for most of the time, but it, you know, wasn't. It wasn't like a hundred percent. Like say if Lindy got too close to the gate that we had for the upstairs bedroom. Sometimes if I was sitting on the other side, Penny would start getting very focused and start trying to get closer and closer.
But usually if it was a far enough distance from the gate and also better with the downstairs gate, she could stay mostly under threshold just with the barrier. But that was mostly because I had been listening to your podcast and you know, trying to by myself, work on them disengaging from each other.
Because I think a lot of the time what traditional, or not traditional, but what a lot of training that's not specific to cat dog relationship teaches is kind of like, increased focus on the thing that you're trying to work on.
So say like when if I did that with Penny, she would be focusing on Lindy. And so I think one of the most important things I learned from your podcast was to not do that so that they didn't start focusing so much more on each other. And so through that we were able to keep Penny decently below threshold most of the time around the gates.
And unless Lindy was like, I'm leaving. She has such a funny, like her tail is just so fluffy that whenever she moves, you can't miss it. She's very that's the year old short-haired cat that you totally got.
So we started working together. And you joined, that was when it was primarily just the Club, like group coaching. So walk me through what we were working on and like what your impressions of the Club were in terms of resources and like how we got started.
Yeah.
I think that's a really common experience, right? Especially if you like haven't been doing any of these kind of group coaching where it relies on you putting yourself out there to really engage with the resources that are available. Like, we have live calls, which you have to get the gumption up to go to and then maybe participate and talk and you don't have to, but it is sometimes difficult to be like, I need to like get to know these people as a lurker, see what's going on. And that's super common. And I'm always happy to see, when you come out and you say, I have this question. I'm like, yes, great! I'm always trying to make it clearer, what the next steps are gonna be and that it's, you know, a judgment free zone type of thing. What? It's such a stereotypical word. I need like a better phrase of like, we're all cool.
Yeah.
Everyone there likes cats and dogs and they're just trying to help their animals get along. And it's not like some random public group on Facebook where you post something and then everyone might disagree with you. Yeah.
Oh my gosh, Facebook is scary place. And that's one of the reasons that I have the Club on a private app because I didn't want anyone to be feeling distracted or stressed by the other potential dog group stuff that's Facebook has, or even Instagram.
Where people have a lot of opinions, but they're all coming from very different backgrounds and understanding of what's going on. And so like within the Club, everyone from the beginning, we try to know each other's animals and their tendencies and then the people behind those animals. And it's a much more comprehensive picture of what's actually going on with everyone.
And we're all coming from the same background content and resources and stuff.
Yeah.
So once you started doing the setups, you made like really good progress. Were there some things where you felt discouraged or like things were not going in the right direction, and how did you or we troubleshoot that?
Yeah, I think with most things there were days where I was very happy with the progress that we were making, and then there were days where I was frustrated due to the lack of progress. And I felt like potentially we would never make it to a point where I could have them in the same area without heavy management.
But the setups, so what was really helpful was just having the Club around. I did do like a little segment of not necessarily private coaching, but I got more of a structured plan from you. And then a lot of the video feedback was either through you directly or through the club.
And what was really helpful overall was posting our video content to one, have a record to see how far we had progressed, and also to get feedback from you and from other people about things that we could change. You know, I remember there were some days where we were doing Super Bowls with Penny on a leash without the gate.
Cuz we had progressed to that and Penny lunged at Lindy and Lindy ran away and I felt really bad and sad and frustrated, but then I posted it and the feedback I received was like, you know, look how quickly Penny recovered. Look how quickly Lindy recovered. They were totally fine after this had happened, you know, before Lindy might have hid for a long time, or Penny may have been over threshold for much longer after that.
So it was just encouraging to hear that and sort remember that progress isn't linear and it's like up and down and up and down.
Yeah. Yeah. I love video. I love it for so many reasons, but being able to say like, oh, today was really crummy. And then going back to your videos from a month ago and being like, we are in a different spot.
Like, wow. Even though like yesterday was crap. So I really appreciate you pointing that out, that yes, there's the lens of all of the support from the people in the Club, and in addition to that, you can motivate yourself by saying, I'm just gonna take a little peeksie back in the archives and see the differences in how things are going.
So I think it's a good combination of subjective love from the other humans and also objective data.
So fast forward things were going really well. Lindy... she had decided that she was gonna hang out on the floor like next to the stairs, so she wasn't on the stairs anymore.
She was just like, I live on my mat, at the bottom of the stairs. And so that was slightly frustrating for Penny, right? Because she was like, close but not so close. If I'm remembering correctly. I think we said, all right, we need to switch from focusing on Penny to focusing on helping Lindy be more confident, like moving around the space from the stairs to the couch, which is on the other side of the room.
So okay let's talk about how your house is set up for a little bit. So the stairs coming down, which was Lindy's access to her safe space and then across the room where like the TV is and everything. And then on the other side of the room is the couch, which is an L shape.
And we had decided, okay, maybe we're not gonna have the whole living room be where Lindy has access to, but maybe let's have like a corridor cor corridor,
You know what I mean? A hallway ish thing. With an X pen from the stairs to the side of the couch so that Lindy could hang out on the couch.
And we had made that decision and we had worked on having Lindy follow stations from the stairs over to the couch. And we had done that for like two days or something like that. And then we learned that we needed to be a little quicker with our progress, right?
Uh, we got some diagnosis situation. Yeah, let's talk about the kick in the butt where we were like, we don't have as much time as we think we might.
Yeah. A number of things happened around that time. So like you were saying, we had built a little like corridor, some shelves up to our like fireplace mantle behind the tv and then wrapping around with like a cat condo to the couch. And she was using it well, and she sometimes also had a few instances where she decided she wanted to get onto the couch, which meant she was out of her little, like safety zone.
And so that was nerve wracking for me because Penny was usually free roaming at that time. And then, also, what happened at that time was Lindy ended up being diagnosed with Cushing's disease. And she, after her diagnostic exams was doing very poorly, where she seemed very like lethargic and ill, and also had lost a decent chunk of her skin due to just her disease.
And so we weren't sure how much longer she was gonna have with us and once she recovered a little bit from that, I was like, well, you know, I think we're ready to move forward and try to get rid of barriers. Based on the progress we had been making. And also because I just want to let Lindy have as much freedom in the last however long of her life that she has.
And so that was also another time when you and the club were instrumental in helping me get over that kind of fear of letting them be together without gates. And it wasn't just like, one day I took away the gates and it was like, here you go, you guys are free. You know, we started out with Penny on leash.
And we still did our setups and things like that, but so that kind of factored into the decision to s peed up the progress.
Yeah, and I'm just remembering, I'm gonna go look for this picture back in the club records, you had mentioned Lindy was like wanting to get up on the couch and it's impossible to have a gate on the couch. It just didn't work that way. And we were like, oh God, she's gonna go into Penny's area.
And so I was like, well, why don't you just sit in between them and see what happens. And there's a picture of them both sleeping. Like next to you. And I think, I cried a little bit. I don't know about
Yeah.
Cause it was really affirming of all the work that you had done.
But also, Lindy had been saying I'm not scared of Penny. I'm ready to come up on the couch. And Penny had seen enough of Lindy moving around that, she was on leash, but it was okay. And you being there was enough of a active management strategy for everyone to be able to like actually sit together.
There was still barriers, but you were spending more time on the couch relaxing all together and then, you know, it just felt like you were like, oh look, now they're sitting next to each other. They're living together happily. But the important thing, I think, is this is not the end of the story, right? We didn't say, oh, we don't have barriers almost all the time, and now we're all fine. We said, okay. There's a few situations where one or both of them are a little uncomfortable, so we need to work specifically on those. So can you talk a little bit about those sticky spots that came up?
Yes. Yeah, like you said, we first got rid of the barriers downstairs around the couch area. Our living room is like fairly large, and so that eventually grew to Penny and Lindy could be around each other in the living room, dining room area without any sort of, scuffle or chase from Penny or any heavy management from me.
And that also eventually moved upstairs to our bedroom as well, which is also a larger space where they could be relatively comfortable around each other. But in smaller spaces like our hallway upstairs and also our kitchen Penny would get a little nervous when Lindy got too close and then she would start doing her, I don't know what's going on, let me do a play bow, let me leap around here and there. And that rightfully would offend Lindy a little bit.
And so we essentially did the same kind of progression we had done with other places before we got rid of all the barriers of combination of working on disengaging from each other, setups so that mostly Penny could work around getting her mind off Lindy and being okay in the same space without focusing on her.
And also some relaxation behaviors with just settling on mats and things like that. And over time, I think because of the foundation they had built, and the work that we had previously done, the sticky spots dissipated. And now they can be in the hallway, they can be in the kitchen.
Lindy now walks over Penny's face sometimes when they're waiting for breakfast in the kitchen. And Penny's just like, cool, like that's fine.
How rude, Lindy!
Yeah. And so I think it's just it feels like, I, this is basically exactly what I wanted. This is what I've always dreamt would happen. And what was nice for us was that because of kind of the progress we had made in the foundations we had built, they have really developed a relationship.
They don't necessarily like love each other, that I know of, but they trust each other. And if Lindy feels comfortable walking around Penny and Penny's okay with that, it doesn't make her nervous anymore. And both of them can exist close to each other without any heavy management or issues.
This happens with a lot of cases where there's this crucial point where you're like, there's a breakthrough.
Mm-hmm.
And I wish I could predict when and where that would happen. That would make my life a lot easier. I'd be like, well, you know, what about in about two months you're just gonna have this magical epiphany and it's gonna happen on the couch and it's gonna be anyway, one can only dream, but there's usually some kind of critical point, and then things just fall into place. And there are sticky spots that emerge here and there, and then, like you said, you work on them. There's nothing new that we're gonna bring up into those sticky spots. It's gonna be variations on a theme. But really specifically taking a look at what are the triggers that are really bothering them in that particular situation, and puzzling those out and pulling out the things that are difficult. So like Lindy being so obsessed with food made the kitchen difficult, right? Because she wanted slash needed to be underfoot at any time when food was being prepared.
And so it was hard to manage. We had to come up with a little bit of, some management that's very specific to that situation and that's where like the individual aspects of the sticky spots, it's really more like a fun puzzle because they have the skills already.
It's just tweaking them to be appropriate for that situation.
You know, I think some people have issues where their cat is not food motivated enough or hasn't engaged with food enough so that they can be used in training. But sometimes having a cat that's so food motivated is also difficult cuz Lindy will definitely steal Penny's treats if I don't reward her fast enough.
And that at first was a little bit dicey, but I think again, because of the relationship they built, sometimes if Penny's eating and Lindy goes and snatches one of her treats from the ground, Penny's just like, okay, cool, whatever. This is just what happens. Like, I understand.
And then of course, I reward Penny for acting calm in that situation. But it's just, an example of kind of how things have progressed.
Yeah, and we actually worked on that specifically. This is not something that you would always need to do if your cat is not trying to get in your dog's face. Well, we did a lot of name game stuff with them. Where Lindy, it was mostly for Lindy to be like, wait your turn.
Yeah.
She would put her little paws and get a little closer. It's like, no ma'am, this is your mat. You over here, Penny over here. Yeah and they liked doing that too. I think that helped Penny as well, learn to trust that okay, Lindy's gonna be over there.
Okay, so you've reached all of your goals. You're fantastically wonderful and we're all so very proud of you. And one thing that I really love is that you're still in the Club and helping the other peeps who are going through some of the same things that you've already gone through.
Does it feel, how does it feel to be like the, in the mentor kind of space versus the like I'm scared to post head space.
I don't necessarily feel like a mentor. I feel like just a peer who has gone through that situation or maybe a similar situation and maybe have some tips that could be helpful. But I really like staying in the club and I really like when I have the time to review other people's videos because I feel like I'm always learning stuff from other people's
situations, and they may be totally different from mine, I'll see how one person did something with their cat and dog like set up and I'll be like, oh, that's a good idea. That's something that I could use or if I offer some advice on how to fix something that can also help me you know, identify things in our setups and in our life that can be improved upon.
You know, recently we haven't been doing really much setups because, well, they don't necessarily need them, but I suppose it could always be helpful, but because of time we haven't done official setups, so that doesn't mean there aren't times where they're together and one of them does something that I like and so I'll reinforce that.
Which is I feel like I learn a lot from remaining in the club and looking at other people's videos.
You're more in like maintenance mode, right? And you know that you have this resource that if you wanna do more, delve deeper, engage with other people about this, then you have that resource. It isn't just we work together until you've gotten to a certain point and then you know, go forth and prosper. I mean, you can, go forth and prosper.
But I think there's a lot of value in having this resource that takes into account that this is a journey that doesn't really end. You can say, I have achieved my goals. Check, check, and that's fine. And you also can come back if questions come up or if troubleshooting needs to happen, right? Things have been going really well and then someone gets sick and we need to change up some management. It's nice to have that community to check in with.
Yeah, definitely. It's definitely a community. And you know, I feel like some of the people on there, like, I feel like I know them. I do know them in a way, but I've obviously never met them before. Yeah, it's super cool and also like it has helped me be more comfortable with doing kind of other virtual mostly dog training things through other platforms. And so that also has opened up like a bunch of opportunities for me.
Cool. Yeah, there aren't enough cat virtual learning opportunities, although.
no
Julie, I'll, I should link to Julie's cat school stuff cuz that's fun too. Okay, so to wrap up, this has been fantastic. Thank you for taking us through your journey.
I mean, Honestly, I wish I had joined the club earlier. I had been thinking about it for a while, but because I wasn't sure, like, you know, the participation that it would take from me and by the putting out our journey thing was intimidating to me. So I tried to do a lot of stuff by myself.
With listening to your podcast at first, but I wish I would've just joined earlier. Because you know, there may be some like terms that people aren't familiar with, but they're, you and other people are always happy to define those things.
And I think just having the mentality that this is like a journey, it's not like a magic, like, all of a sudden the cat and the dog are gonna get along. Like, that's not realistic, but that you and the club are available to assist us in the journey of coexistence.
It has just been super helpful and I wish I had joined earlier cause I'm pretty sure like the first six months we made like maybe one 10th of the progress we made in the last six months working with.
Yeah, it's been really great seeing y'all's progress, and I'm really proud of you and the girls and I will post in the show notes, all the adorableness that is currently happening. Lindy wears the cutest little shirts because of her skin, but she just looks like a little, she's like a little doll diva. She's adorable.
And if it's okay with you then I can post some of the earlier videos too, so people can see the journey that you've taken.
Well, thank you so much Menghan, for coming on the podcast and telling everyone about your journey and the ups and downs and the sideways-es, and the backwards-es, and all of that stuff, it's real life. And I very much appreciate you and you are a wonderful human. And your pets are wonderful pets.
Well, we really appreciate everything you've done for us. It has definitely made my life a lot easier and I hope the end of Lindy's life better, so...
If you're interested in getting a sneak peek into the club experience and seeing penny and Lindy's progress through time inside the club. Go to the show notes for this episode, for some screenshots of actual questions and video submissions.
Seriously go to that link in the episode description because you have to see pictures of Lindy in her little shirts there it's just way too cute. And if you want to get some more personalized guidance with your pets, me and the club are here for you. So head to my website, praise worthy, pets.com to get the skinny on my services for pet parents and to schedule a quick pre-program Q and a. And my wonderful listeners, please help spread the word about the podcast by tapping the share button in your podcast app to send the episode or any others over to the other cat and dog people in your life. And if you want to be super, extra fancy, you can post about the episode on your social media.
Just tag me at praiseworthy pets so that I can thank you. And that is all for this episode. You wonderful cat and dog people see you soon for more it's training cats and dogs.
T his podcast is produced by Praiseworthy Pets.
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