Not making progress with the "typical" path to coexistence?

Nov 8

What adjustments do you make to a generic integration plan when the cat doesn't make himself scarce?

In this Dog and Cat Chat, Melissa and I come up with a plan to make Gem and Bart's interactions more predictable after a chase that ended with the cat in the dog's mouth 😲

What you'll hear in this episode:

why letting a bold cat decide when to see the dog might not be the best idea
how important it is to stop and congratulate yourselves on reaching a mini-milestone (because the journey to coexistence can be long)!
what kinds of setups to do when the dog is more freaked out than the cat
why you can't be one-and-done with a setup (even if your first attempt goes super smoothly)

To listen to the full episode, click here to open it in your podcast player or press play below:

Meet Gem and Bart

The Initial Plan

contain Bart so he doesn’t pop up the stairs and surprise Gem
bring Bart upstairs and practice moving him around the space (including the cat tree)
attempt the following setup:
- Bart elevated and stationary, Gem behind barrier (gate or ex-pen) and dragging a leash eating from multiple stations

Updates from Melissa

✅ What worked:

door latch - no more escapes from Bart!
Gem is able to find his food and disengage from staring at Bart during setups

🤔 What needs more tweaking:

getting Bart up on the cat tree during setups

❗️ New Info:

Gem also barks at Bart when he sees him through the basement window in the backyard

Any future updates from Melissa will be put here - stay tuned!

Naomi: Intro clip: Dogs tend to be split into those categories where one is like they're chasing the thing because it's fun and they wanna get closer to it, or they're chasing the thing to make that thing go away.
Hello, you cat and dog people. This is It's Training Cats and Dogs. The show for people with both cats and dogs who want peace in their home and peace between their animals. I'm Naomi Rotenberg, your source of practical strategies for keeping everyone in your multi-species household safe and sane. And today's episode is a dog and cat chat with Melissa, whose cat Bart is a little too brave.
He surprised the dog Gem and there was a chase that ended with the cat in the dog's mouth. No animals got hurt, but Melissa's husband did. So, now that the dust has settled, Melissa and I talked about how we could prevent something like that happening again, as well as why the common advice of confine the dog and let the cat roam around probably isn't the best choice in Gem and Bart's case. And what setups they could start working on to try to make some progress towards coexist.
All right, let's get into it. Here is my conversation with Melissa.
Melissa, thank you so much for taking the time, and I'm excited to chat about your animals. So, tell me a little bit about your pets, your current situation and we'll dive in.
Melissa: Great. Sounds great. So, in our household we've often had multi-species and thought it was easy until it wasn't. So, about eight months ago, we adopted Gem, a dog.
He's a mutt, and he was about two and a half years old when we adopted him. And then already in the house we had Bart, the cat, and honestly, they're probably about the same age, maybe just a few months separated. You know, we were following the directions, giving you know, taking it slow, keeping them separate in the beginning and probably I would guess about a month into having Gem the door to the basement where Bart was spending his time when the dog was out, was not latched all the way. So, he is a curious guy and opened the door, came upstairs and the dog chased after him. Ended up picking the cat up in his mouth. Thankfully we were able to get the cat out.
No blood was shed for the animals. My, my husband did get bit in the process of removing cat from the mouth of dog, and I would say basically since then their relationship just has been tense. Gem is just, seems to be like pretty anxious anytime he sees or hears the cat. I would say recently Bart has been a little bit more bold.
He's willing to test kind of the boundary a little bit. So, actually this morning he will kind of now willingly go downstairs when I get up to let the dog out in the morning. But then he came back upstairs while the dog was eating breakfast, which was new. And since he was, since Gem was occupied, he didn't even notice the cat was near. And so once, once he was done and once he realized the cat was out, he did kind of wanna chase after him again, but had a barricade up. So, he went outside for a minute, the cat went downstairs. And that's kind of how we've been managing and living. Primarily separated, trying to, especially with the cat, let him choose when he wants to test the waters.
But you know, safety obvious the primary concern. So, we've got baby gates up also using sort of multistep. So, if we're gone, gates are up and doors are closed. So, that's what's going on in our household right now. Got it.
Naomi: So, there's a lot to unpack here, which is fun for me. Probably not as fun for you. But here's where my mind immediately goes. So, the incident. Let's call it the incident. A few months ago where your husband got bit in some kind of redirect aspect.
Melissa: Yeah.
Naomi: So walk me through what happened there. Was there screaming from the humans?
Melissa: Yes.
Naomi: Ok. Who did the biting?
Melissa: The dog.
Naomi: Ok.
Melissa: And he did, My husband did also get scratched by the cat.
Naomi: Great. So, a double whammy. Excellent.
Melissa: Yes. Yes.
Naomi: Ok. And did any psychological damages occur between your husband and the animals?
Melissa: Yes. I mean, temporarily I think, and for I would say about a week...
Naomi: Okay.
Melissa: ...he was upset with the dog. I think we really have worked through that piece of it. Good. And my husband, might walk through here in the moment.
Naomi: Great. Would love to chat if he decides to come. The reason I start with the human motions is that they're often overlooked and they can really factor in terms of not only buy in to working on these things, but also just like understanding the dynamic between everybody. And when there's been bites and you know blood, it's no fun.
So, I'm glad you guys have worked through it and you've figured out a management plan that seems to be working mostly. Now, is Gem the kind of dog, Is he reactive outsideto things that are freaky to him?
Melissa: Yes, he can be.
Naomi: Okay. It's like I've done this before Okay. So, from the very little information that you have given me, I would say that he is the type of dog to move forward in order to get the thing that is scary to move back. Does that sound right?
Melissa: Sounds right.
Naomi: Okay. And the reason this is important is because dogs tend to be split into those categories where one is like they're chasing the thing because it's fun and they wanna get closer to it, or they're chasing the thing to make that thing go away. And importantly, you're gonna address those things differently.
So, if he's freaked out by the cats, then your approach, your current approach of letting the cat be the one to decide when to show up is probably not serving you.
Melissa: Okay.
Naomi: Because the cat's not freaked out as much. Right?
Melissa: Right.
Naomi: The dog is. And so you can put the dog at a disadvantage and make him and basically surprise him, and he won't be able to react in a way that is...He's not gonna be able to really think about what he's doing or get an understanding of how he's supposed to react in those situations. Cause he's, you know, working from a freaked out space. So, how does that land with you, just in terms of switching the frame of reference for what we're talking about?
Melissa: Well, it helps to make sense why, you know, what we're doing we're not really seeing any progress. I mean, I would say he's maybe like a hair more comfortable. Like it takes him a few more seconds to say, Oh, cat! Oh, chase, You know? So yeah, that does help to make sense why what we're doing really is not working.
Naomi: So, you're glossing over a mini milestone there to give yourself some credit. Where like that two to three seconds of thinking is where you have now given yourself a little bit of time to insert yourself and help them learn to choose other behaviors in those situations. So, first of all, pat yourself on the back for that. You have gotten to that point where it's not this immediate rush at, which makes you kind of have to be always reacting rather than being proactive. So, you have made some progress.
The important thing, I think, is to then go back to our management first and say, okay, if we don't want the cat to just suddenly be able to show up, how does that affect our physical management around the house so that he can't do that unless we are ready to help Gem behave appropriately. And also potentially help Bart maneuver himself appropriately and not get too close if Gem's not comfortable with that.
So you mentioned gates and door. So Gem can't chase and I like that there are two. Is there a way to make sure that Bart does not venture where he's not wanted?
Melissa: Yes. How we've been situating them is for the most part, Gem is upstairs in our upstairs living space and Bart is in the basement. So, he's not, you know, just locked in a room all day. He does have some freedom of movement. But as long as the basement door gets pulled all the way shut, he cannot open it. So, that was something we had to learn, that there was, you know, a way it could be not quite fully latched.
Naomi: Got it. So, when this happens, cuz doors are funny things. Doors are funny things. So, one extra thing that I usually recommend when there is a potential for human error on a door is to add basically an extra latch from like the baby range supply. Like the baby proofing supply area. Literally just like you close the door and you just throw a latch.
Melissa: Yep.
Naomi: Just in cases, right? And that becomes a habit really quickly for the humans to also just be thinking about. No one can be supervising them right now and therefore I need to latch this, at least for now, right? This is not forever that they're absolutely apart, but for right now when we cannot or don't have the energy to actively supervise, that's important, right? Cause your home doesn't mean you're like let's do a setup.
Then we need to either - Bart needs to be behind some kind of p proof barrier. And that might look like it's not always the basement, right? So, if you're home and you wanna hang out with the cat, like you can bring him into your bedroom or whatever, right? Whatever works for you in your routine in order to be able to spend quality time with him.
So, that would be my first action item. Would be chat with the hubs about any adjustments that need to be made to make sure that our bold friend, Mr. Bart, is contained when we can't be supervising. That's number one. Number two is then adjusting your setups because they're not going to now be sudden. You're gonna say, all right, it's time for us to work on integrating them together in a carefully orchestrated kind of way.
That is very much gonna help Gem especially. Now, Bart can and should learn some skills to be able to move around the space in a calm way so that he doesn't book it, and then make it really hard for Gem to not chase him. So, wherever you choose to do these setups should ideally be in a space where Bart can move around comfortably. Potentially jump up on stuff.
Melissa: Yes.
Naomi: Is he a cat that jumps up on stuff?
Melissa: Yes.
Naomi: Okay, great. Then we don't have to teach it as much, although I would just for enrichment's sake, play around with him moving from space to space...
Melissa: Okay.
Naomi: ..In that area when Gem is not around. And then you'll have a barrier between them, but it doesn't need to be as intense because the goal is really to have each of them occupied with something. Whether it's you actively reinforcing one of them for behaviors that you like, or they're just eating their meal together hanging out. And in that way, Gem is going to have much more feeling of control over what's happening, and then he can be in his brain a little bit more so that you can say, Oh look bud, like you don't have to just move towards that cat every time you see him. We actually want you to move away from that cat. That's the goal there. And we also want Bart, who's a forward type of dude, even though he's probably for a different reason, to also learn to move away from the dog and not poke the beast.
Melissa: Yeah.
Naomi: So how can you think of where you might do that kind of setup in your home?
Melissa: Probably where it would work best is our main living space. That's where we do have a cat tree that's about eight feet tall, so he has, levels to play with too. But then there would also be just the physical space where they could be feet apart rather than inches apart.
Naomi: Right. So, they can see each other through a barrier, but there's some distance to be able to helpthem out to not be right on top of each other. That sounds great. So, I would either use a baby gate or an Expen to have that physical barrier. You can also have gem on leash for like basically like a seatbelt, but I wouldn't be holding onto it. I want him to be able to move behind that physical barrier as freely as possible so he can make appropriate choices that we can then reinforce rather than holding onto him being like, don't go there. Cause you have that physical barrier there to work on. To help with that if he loses his brain.
And can't get anywhere.
So, I usually recommend starting with their meal times. If they are relatively food motivated and it sounds like Gem is, cuz he didn't even notice that the cat showed up when he was eating, then you have a good place to start. Where the first setup that I would probably do is to have bart up on his tree with his food, and then Gem would come in and you would set up a few different stations for him with his food.
So, one would be kind of close-ish to the barrier, and the others would be farish away so that would be three or more like mini stations. So you would divide up his food. Let's say he gets a cup in the evening, there would be a quarter of a cup in each different type of station. And the goal here is that if he does go to the station that's closest to the gate, the next one is gonna take him away so that he's learning the appropriate behaviors, just like you're not having to do anything. Kind of does it on its own. And then when he's done, you say, good boy, and then toss him cookies away and then the setup is over. And Bart either goes somewhere else or Gem goes somewhere else. So, does that sound like something that is doable?
Melissa: Yeah. Yeah. And I think what then my husband and I just have to do, we kind of work different schedules. So I think, you know, as we're trying these setups, we'd probably both wanna be around just for my own wellbeing. .
Naomi: Yeah. The reason I created the setups in the way that I have is because I can do them with just one person, right? One animal is always like just doing some kind of enrichment. So, you set that animal up and then if you're working on like actively reinforcing the other one, you can focus on them. It's always easier with multiple humans, especially if you want the other human to be on the same page as you. To be observing the same body language that you are and kind of adjusting from there.
So, I do recommend also videotaping each setup so that you can look back at it together and see, okay, like he was staring too much in this one. Like we need to move him back. Or Bart was not having it. He was very restless, so we need to adjust something for the next one. Stuff like that. Yeah, and the goal really is Having them be able to do these activities, maybe glancing up at each other.
They know the other one is there. They don't have to be staring. And in fact, if they are staring, that indicates that the setup is too difficult and they need more practice. So, the goal is really quick glances but it just being like super easy and it just looks like kind of nothing is happening like that's your goal. And I usually recommend that if everything goes perfectly, starting from setup one - it's ideal - you would at least do that same setup three times with the picture looking slightly different. Right? So, like you're not gonna set up the stations for Gem at exactly the same spots. You might put Bart's food like on a different level of the cat tree, or like maybe he's on a side table instead of the cat tree or whatever, right?
It's the same like he's elevated and relatively stationary. Gem is moving around, but it's, you're not doing the exact same thing every time. You wanna make sure that when there are small differences between them, you're still getting the same types of easy behavior look, looking away. Nothing is super stressful.
Melissa: Yes.
Naomi: Does that make sense?
Melissa: Yes. And I have no hope that the first setup is gonna go smoothly.
Naomi: I always like to say, just in case, we don't want anyone to say, oh, whatever that last setup was, even if you've done five and they've all gone terribly and then that last one was really good, you're not done.
You need three good setups before you can move on. Just to make sure that generalizability is there. You can always get one positive in a sea full of negatives. So, those are kind of the two main action items for you. One is adjusting the management. Because they are currently absolutely apart, you're gonna maintain them absolutely apart until you get all of the these setups kind of down and you are noticing that everyone's like, I know the drill. No big deal. And then, if we were to continue past right now to do private coaching, there would be like a succession of different types of setups to do before we then say, great, you graduated. You can actually now have them spend supervised time together, not just in this like heavily orchestrated way, but you need to have this foundation of these like successful casual setups in order to be able to do that.
So, that's always the first place to start. And it's also the easiest, which is always a good place to get some confidence in what you're doing. So, do you have any questions, concerns? Are you excited? Are you like, Oh God, this is gonna be horrible?
Melissa: No, I think I'm more excited than not. And yeah, I just kind of feel like we've been making it up, trying to figure out what might work. So, it feels, yeah, to have a more structured plan, feels like it will be helpful.
Naomi: Yeah, I think - well, I mean, that's one of the reasons that I love doing this and like specializing in dog cat stuff is because there really isn't a lot of good comprehensive information out there. That's why I'm here. So, I'm happy that you came on the podcast today.
Thanks so much for listening. If this episode gave you some ideas of things to do with your own cat and dog, please subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any future episodes. And tell your friends and family and that random dude at the grocery store about the show, because I want every cat and dog person in the world to know about this podcast. Because that's a super reasonable goal, right?
Anyway, I will be live on Instagram this Thursday at noon Eastern to answer your questions about the episode and to dive a little deeper into ways to interrupt your dog if they're chasing the cat. Make sure to follow me at praiseworthy pets on Instagram and check out my stories for a link to that live so you will get a reminder that it's happening.
And if you want to be awesome, like Melissa, and do a dog and cat chat with me on the podcast, go to praiseworthypets.com/chat to get on my schedule. I can't wait to talk with you. And that's all for this episode, you wonderful cat and dog people. I will see you next week for more it's Training Cats and Dogs.

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